Our steel wall vinyl liner IG pool is 3 years old this month. We started to feel bumps under the liner last year in a roughly 2x2 area which starts just below the water line. Late this season I noticed the area had grown to almost a whole wall panel and started on another one across the pool. We contacted the builder and they suspected it could be rusting under the liner but would wait until closing to lower the water level and look behind the liner. They also contacted the manufacturer, Cardinal Pool Products who sent a rep out to inspect it. They came on Monday to close the pool and inspect behind the liner, but because the weather was cold they could only remove the liner in a small area, which was not the most affected spot. Well the Cardinal rep also came to inspect the wall issue and confirmed it was "white rust" or galvanic corrosion. He had no explanation as to the cause but suggested it could be stray ground current after he visually inspected the bonding at the equipment pad. Of course they just care about the panels and will repair the affected panels by scraping/grinding and applying an epoxy coating. As expected he said it would be up to the builder to determine if the liner can be dropped and reused. If not I guess it will be on us to pay for a new one. We are in the early stages of this battle and are waiting for his written report before we start the back and forth with the builder. Just wondering if anyone had any insights as to what might cause this and what repair options from the manufacturer I should except or demand for the best longevity. Pretty discouraging to have spent this much money on something I thought would last a long time only to start to fail so quickly.
Steel Wall Corrosion On 3 Year Old IG Pool
- Thread starter rmundo21
- Start date
rmundo:
Sorry for your troubles, and I will take a stab at this. Also, please upload pictures regarding this situation.
Q: Are the bumps under the water line near any returns, skimmers, jets, etc?
Galvanic Corrosion, is where 2 dissimilar metals are together, with electricity and chlorinated water (From what I know). My light niche screws started rusting and to solve it (again, can not guarantee this, but it worked for me), I added a sacrificial zinc anode at the pump. It only happened at the screws at the light niche, and the screws on the returns are fine. There is no other rusting at the skimmers, main drain, or any dripping or staining anywhere in the pool from the outside, and I can not tell you if anything has started behind the liner. I have had absolutely no corrosion at all at the screws. Each year, I use my hand and feel the liner around all the walls and only near the steps are some bumps. Based on the pictures that were taken, it appears that the bumps are from splattered concrete on the galvanized steel walls as this is the area they entered with the concrete.
In your case, it appears that water entered behind the liner to cause this type of corrosion. As your builder originally suspected stray currents, I would ask an electrician to come back and test the water. When this happened to me, I quickly called the electrician who worked on the pool and he came here at no charge as there would be liability on his part. He tested the water to see if this was the case, in which it was not. Last week, a friend who used the same PB that as an in line zinc anode built in the pool with an SWG system, showed signs of rust around the light niche as well. I asked him about his chemicals and assume that he could be off on certain things, but he could also have a problem with galvanic corrosion. Last liner change I was at , most rust on the panels were near the skimmer areas.
Back to your situation, the PB is technically responsible for the pool. If the pool walls are problematic and the liner is destroyed, I would think that the PB is responsible for the liner, and then can go get the funds back from the wall manufacturer. Most warranties are from the manufacturers, and not necessarily the PB, but it is worth a shot. If this is happening to you, then clearly it has happened to others with the same type of setup, unless again somehow you have water behind the liner, which means that the PB did not install the liner properly and you have a leak somewhere.
Please keep us posted and hopefully others can chime in. Also, can you please upload some pictures of the pool and describe the areas in question.
Sorry for your troubles, and I will take a stab at this. Also, please upload pictures regarding this situation.
Q: Are the bumps under the water line near any returns, skimmers, jets, etc?
Galvanic Corrosion, is where 2 dissimilar metals are together, with electricity and chlorinated water (From what I know). My light niche screws started rusting and to solve it (again, can not guarantee this, but it worked for me), I added a sacrificial zinc anode at the pump. It only happened at the screws at the light niche, and the screws on the returns are fine. There is no other rusting at the skimmers, main drain, or any dripping or staining anywhere in the pool from the outside, and I can not tell you if anything has started behind the liner. I have had absolutely no corrosion at all at the screws. Each year, I use my hand and feel the liner around all the walls and only near the steps are some bumps. Based on the pictures that were taken, it appears that the bumps are from splattered concrete on the galvanized steel walls as this is the area they entered with the concrete.
In your case, it appears that water entered behind the liner to cause this type of corrosion. As your builder originally suspected stray currents, I would ask an electrician to come back and test the water. When this happened to me, I quickly called the electrician who worked on the pool and he came here at no charge as there would be liability on his part. He tested the water to see if this was the case, in which it was not. Last week, a friend who used the same PB that as an in line zinc anode built in the pool with an SWG system, showed signs of rust around the light niche as well. I asked him about his chemicals and assume that he could be off on certain things, but he could also have a problem with galvanic corrosion. Last liner change I was at , most rust on the panels were near the skimmer areas.
Back to your situation, the PB is technically responsible for the pool. If the pool walls are problematic and the liner is destroyed, I would think that the PB is responsible for the liner, and then can go get the funds back from the wall manufacturer. Most warranties are from the manufacturers, and not necessarily the PB, but it is worth a shot. If this is happening to you, then clearly it has happened to others with the same type of setup, unless again somehow you have water behind the liner, which means that the PB did not install the liner properly and you have a leak somewhere.
Please keep us posted and hopefully others can chime in. Also, can you please upload some pictures of the pool and describe the areas in question.
Thank you Catanzaro. Unfortunately I did not get pictures under the liner. The mfg rep snapped a couple for his report from the small area where they were able to pull the liner, but I did not think of getting some for myself. I will upload some pics I have of the pool when I get a chance. There area was bone dry and I never had any leaks or overflows for that matter. This was done at the winter closing so now all the equipment is off and the cover is on. Good call on getting the installing electrician out there to test things, I will get on that in the spring. As far as where this issue is occurring, it's on the side walls in the deep end, for now. There are no skimmers, returns or lights in the side panels. I have felt around the skimmers and light in the past and did not notice these bumps. I did notice some discoloration around 2 screws on one skimmer faceplate above the water line, the other is fine. I don't have an inline anode, but will definitely install one in the spring and maybe throw some in the skimmer baskets for the heck of it. I spoke with the builder today and they are still waiting for the mfg response. once that happens we can start the go around for the liner replacement. I will update the forum when I hear something. Do you think the manufacturers repair solution, what ever that may be at this point, is a viable long term fix for the steel walls? Provided we can rule out all possible causes.
Hard to answer and you will have to wait for the builder, etc. I would not place any zinc anodes in the skimmers, on ladders, etc. The ZINC will be suspended in the water. Will send you my thread with some detailed information from Chem Geek. Outside is best. I should have connected a # 8 copper wire or a few to the bonding wires during the building process as they could have been back up to protection the pool from corrosion.
Some members are not totally convinced that they work, but I believe they do. It is worth a shot and not a lot of money. My thread will give you part #'s, pictures, etc. Upload them tomorrow.
Some members are not totally convinced that they work, but I believe they do. It is worth a shot and not a lot of money. My thread will give you part #'s, pictures, etc. Upload them tomorrow.
I look forward to seeing your thread on that install. I will add an inline anode in the spring and forgo the ones in the basket. I do have a #8 copper bond wire that is available. it was supposed to go to the aluminum fence but was later told the fence did not need to be bonded because it was more than 5 feet away from the pool so it is buried under the decorative stone around the fence
The anode is off line (I guess), and is attached to the bonding wire at the pump.
Zinc Anode
Sequence of chemicals and possibly any effects on what happened to screws at light.
Zinc Anode
Sequence of chemicals and possibly any effects on what happened to screws at light.
Thanks again Catanzaro. That is a great post. My equipment pad is similar to yours with a heat pump to keep the ground moist. I will put an anode in the ground like you did and maybe 2 more connected to the fence bonding wire lugs that I can access. And I thought inline was the way to go, didn't know anything about these in ground types. Where did you buy it? I will have the electrician come out when we open the pool to check everything. In the mean time, someone mentioned calling the power company to check for stray current from their underground cables which power my house.
Everything has to be connected to the pool and to each other, that is what "bonding is". Also, please note that I replaced the screws with new screws that Hayward sent me. So in theory, you will have to repair (as you can not remove and replace the whole panel) the rust on the wall (scrape, paint with a rust preventer and the dealers know best), and by no means is this a guarantee, but an option. For me, it worked. Hopefully in 5-8 years when the liner is peeled back, I will find out what the walls look like.
You can still add an inline, but the post fro Chem-Geek states that a certain amount of Zinc in the water with Copper will cause staining. Short term I do not believe this is problematic, but long term possibly.
A marine store will sell the anodes. I had to modify mine with a different screw, and the connectors and wiring was all from Home Depot or Lowes. This past year, I used a 6" PVC, with a notch and buried it in the ground with a cap. Over the anode there is a few inches of soil. I have to go purchase a new anode and compare old to new to determine how much degradation has occurred.
Smart idea to have the power company come out and check everything as they will show up at no charge. The electrician will probably charge you, unless you can get the pool companies electrician as there could potentially be liability there.
Good luck and keep us posted!
So the manufacturer Cardinal Pools got back to my pool builder on this corrosion issue and said it is being caused by ground water getting in between the liner and the wall due to the excessive rains we have had this year and last. Shocker! Cardinal of course said their product, the galvanized steel walls, are doing its job by sacrificing the zinc plating. They recommend a french drain be installed and of course they are off the hook for anything. This despite the company rep that came out to see it told me he don’t have an explanation. As a reminder this pool is 3 years old this month. Is this a possibility even though at the time they pulled the liner back it was bone dry and the liner never floated due to any water below or behind it.
Rmundo:
You know your property better than anyone else. In addition, if ground water is from excessive rains, your patio should be sloped away from the pool, and some will come off the patio in the pool, but I do not believe this for a minute. When you pool was built, you clearly would have seen ground water around the pool walls, and the base of the pool. If this was the case, drainage would have had to be placed in and around the pool with a pump prior to back filling, let alone after the fact. Run off from the patio away from the pool should be collected in a swale, rerouted accordingly with the use of french drains, so in total agreement.
Is it at all possible that water is behind the liner due to a compromise in the liner, near the skimmers, and/or returns? I believe you stated NO, but somewhere and somehow water is causing this issue. You have to figure out what the real issue is.
You know your property better than anyone else. In addition, if ground water is from excessive rains, your patio should be sloped away from the pool, and some will come off the patio in the pool, but I do not believe this for a minute. When you pool was built, you clearly would have seen ground water around the pool walls, and the base of the pool. If this was the case, drainage would have had to be placed in and around the pool with a pump prior to back filling, let alone after the fact. Run off from the patio away from the pool should be collected in a swale, rerouted accordingly with the use of french drains, so in total agreement.
Is it at all possible that water is behind the liner due to a compromise in the liner, near the skimmers, and/or returns? I believe you stated NO, but somewhere and somehow water is causing this issue. You have to figure out what the real issue is.
I am pretty sure the water, if that's what is causing the corrosion, is not coming from the pool. If it is ground water from runoff from the yard, patio, wherever, would it enter between the wall and liner and affect only the center third of the wall panel? I am assuming this water would come from the panel seams which they ran a bead of silicone down the length before assembling the panels together or under the aluminum coping. Three years old and now I have to spend another ton of money to correct this. Of course I keep asking myself why didn't we get poly walls and I would be sleeping good at night. I wont let the manufacture off the hook that easy though after their rep told me on site he does not have an explanation.
If this was my pool, I would have them prove to me exactly where the water is coming from. As mentioned previously, during the build you would have seen ground water all over the place. It is very evident. My Once a patio is poured, water runs off. Now, do you have concrete or pavers? Or some other type of patio? Maybe seepage though something. Please upload some pictures of the pool as well with the area in question.
Here are a couple of picks. One pic is during construction just to point out where on the walls this is happening. Even it is water from excessive rains would it be able to only target that middle third of the wall panel? Wouldn’t enter from the bottom or top?
http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Ray_Mundo/slideshow/
http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Ray_Mundo/slideshow/
I do not think it is entering from the top or the bottom. What I would do is pour water right above the areas in question and see if and how it drains. Pour right next to the liner and see if it enters the pool, or runs off towards the grass. Are there any visible areas on the liner with stains. If there are cuts, then stains would appear there as well.
I will give that a shot. But isn't it odd that the corrosion does not start at the top of the liner but rather about 12 inches down. In reality doesn't water from excessive splashing get behind the liner if it gets in the liner track or the gaps where the aluminum coping sections come together and covered by that little cap? I can't see the coping and liner track being water proof.
From the pics I would assume the "storm water" Not "ground water" goes into the stone around the edge of the deck then travels back towards the pool in the stone under the concrete deck (it looks like it had a stone base under the deck) then goes through a seam in the wall (or over the top). There should have been a French drain installed in that entire perimeter stone edge from the start. You would want a plastic barrier on the deck side of the stone edge to prevent the water going back towards the pool.
Thanks Rich. That makes sense. The patio was added after the pool project was completed. I am sure despite them pitching it left and right away from the pool it is finding its way there. Anyone know of a way to retrofit some type of drainage in that area? It's about 2 feet wide filled with river rock, but the fence runs down the middle of it.
Attachments
Sorry, technically challenged. I fixed the link in post #13 hopefully you can see all the pics.
I have read numerous posts onTFP about floating liners and water getting between a vinyl liner and the pool wall yet none mention the corrosion potential. If my issue is ground water or run off working it’s way under the liner, which has never burgers out or floated, should the 3 year old galvanized panels be corroding?
Pool looks great. Did you ever try using a hose to see the runoff? If this is not the issue, then clearly water is coming from somewhere or the panels are defective.