Starting up a hot tub in the mountains

[DougJack]

Hi, I've decided to go with this apparently clear approach to setting up and maintaining a hot tub with well water at 6700 feet in Wyoming. I didn't feel good with the inconsistency that I felt I was getting with a service that had different people coming at different times. I'm hoping that people on the forum can help me home in on the best, simple process. I know my water has quite high alkalinity. I measured it as somewhere close to 150. The current CYA is over 100 and I intend to drain the water next week. I'll be gone for a few days, but hopefully on return I will have the TP-Pro kit. I plan to test the water as filled without any additions and then add whatever chemicals are needed with measurements as I go. This is well water. I suppose I could do a simple filtration before filling, but that might be something to consider later on. In short, I really looking for you guys to guide me to building a hot tub regimen that is healthy and easy to manage. Party for all on completion!

I have 12.5% liquid chlorine and a few other chemicals from the previous attempts to "take the magic out". I'm running the water at 104F in a Sundance, Optima. It has effectively 400 gallons. I have a cover (Oasis) with a pretty tight seal.

Love to have the guidance! - Doug

 

[Mdragger88]

Here’s the long guide

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa or Hot Tub?

If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...

www.troublefreepool.com

And the short one

Hot Tub Basics - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Before draining we recommend that you purge the tub to get rid of any biofilms.
Ahhsome is what most here recommend.

You’ll need some 99% dichlor, liquid chlorine, muriatic acid, and your kit for start up.

 

[Mdragger88]

Also, if you’re away on a frequent basis you may consider adding a saltwater chlorine generator to handle your standby chlorination.
I wouldn’t have a tub without one.
Saltron mini & controlomatic are popular and well liked brands

 

[DougJack]

Here’s the long guide

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa or Hot Tub?

If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...

www.troublefreepool.com

And the short one

Hot Tub Basics - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Before draining we recommend that you purge the tub to get rid of any biofilms.
Ahhsome is what most here recommend.

You’ll need some 99% dichlor, liquid chlorine, muriatic acid, and your kit for start up.

Thanks - I'll read both shortly. I just ordered th Ahhsome and some Muriatic Acid. I have the others ordered already. - Great advice! Thanks

 

[DougJack]

Also, if you’re away on a frequent basis you may consider adding a saltwater chlorine generator to handle your standby chlorination.
I wouldn’t have a tub without one.
Saltron mini & controlomatic are popular and well liked brands

I had considered that before, but I ran into some people on the internet that said that it was a terrible idea and would void the warranty on the hot tub. I didn't understand why, but I also decided that because that I knew so little at the moment, that I would shelve the idea for the time being. Like to get your views on it.

 

[Mdragger88]

You would need to reference your warranty material to see if salt is explicitly prohibited. Some outline this & some are vague.
Many choose to wait until after the warranty period is over to add salt just to play it safe. You’d need to determine your own risk tolerance on that one.
Voiding the warranty & actually causing damage are two different things. As I am sure you are aware most manufacturers these days look for any reason to avoid honoring a warranty.
I have a “cheapish” spa that has no specific salt clause and I was willing to take the risk and do my own repairs if necessary so I went salt immediately 6 years ago- YMMV.

Fwiw the units I referenced above use less salt than most swcg pools.
Saltron mini is 2000-2400ppm. & small controlomatic units is 500- 2000ppm.

For reference a little over 1 gallon of 10% liquid chlorine will increase salt by 500 ppm in a 400 gal tub. Thats 3ppm worth for 83 days. With A high use tub this will be faster.
Dichlor, Muriatic acid, and sweaty people also add to the salt concentration.
Unfortunately we see salt get blamed for alot of things in pools & spas, often times this is actually due to misinformation that having a saltwater chlorine generator means there is no maintenance so people tend to neglect their chemistry and things go awry.

 

[DougJack]

You would need to reference your warranty material to see if salt is explicitly prohibited. Some outline this & some are vague.
Many choose to wait until after the warranty period is over to add salt just to play it safe. You’d need to determine your own risk tolerance on that one.
Voiding the warranty & actually causing damage are two different things. As I am sure you are aware most manufacturers these days look for any reason to avoid honoring a warranty.
I have a “cheapish” spa that has no specific salt clause and I was willing to take the risk and do my own repairs if necessary so I went salt immediately 6 years ago- YMMV.

Fwiw the units I referenced above use less salt than most swcg pools.
Saltron mini is 2000-2400ppm. & small controlomatic units is 500- 2000ppm.

For reference a little over 1 gallon of 10% liquid chlorine will increase salt by 500 ppm in a 400 gal tub. Thats 3ppm worth for 83 days. With A high use tub this will be faster.
Dichlor, Muriatic acid, and sweaty people also add to the salt concentration.
Unfortunately we see salt get blamed for alot of things in pools & spas, often times this is actually due to misinformation that having a saltwater chlorine generator means there is no maintenance so people tend to neglect their chemistry and things go awry.

Thanks - I'll check with Sundance to see their position on the salt.

 

[DangerBoy]

@DougJack I see that you're in Wyoming in mountains very similar to those just west of my city (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) (same mountain range I think) which is a few hundred miles north of you. The geology of the mountains there is essentially the same as the mountains here and the mountains here are predominantly made out of limestone which is calcium carbonate and dolomitic limestone which is also calcium carbonate but with some of the calcium being replaced by magnesium so calcium-magnesium carbonate. Those minerals are soluble so the groundwater you have in your well will likely be of the calcium-magnesium bicarbonate water type. Knowing that, you should expect your well water to have high calcium hardness and high total alkalinity. Just as an FYI, total alkalinity is basically a measure of how much carbonate and bicarbonate is in the water. At neutral pH and close to neutral pH, the concentration of carbonate (CO3) will be quite small compared to that of bicarbonate (HCO3) so in the pH ranges you'll be dealing with, total alkalinity is basically just a measure of what the concentration of bicarbonate is in your water.

I don't know what the TA of your well water is but I'm sure it's well over 100 mg/L or ppm. Where I am, the rivers my city gets water from come down from the Rockies and along the way here that water runs over a lot of limestone that has washed down from the mountains. As it does that, it dissolves a lot of that limestone and becomes a Calcium-magnesium bicarbonate type water with a lot of calcium hardness. Total hardness of my city water ranges from 126 - 262 ppm, depending on which of the two rivers your water is coming from and what time of the year it is. Total Alkalinity ranges from about 110 - 140 ppm in the river I get my drinking water from.

With high total alkalinity like what your well water is likely to have, you will have problems maintaining a stable pH unless you follow the startup procedures specified in the "How do I Use Chlorine (or Bromine) in my spa or hot tub?" postings. If you can bleed your TA down to about 60 ppm at startup following those procedures, you will be set up for success and maintaining a stable pH afterwards will not be much of a problem. Failing to get your TA down to 60 ppm or so at startup will result in you chasing your pH around a lot and I know this from experience because getting a stable pH of 7.5 used to give me fits before I discovered this website and learned about what you need to do to get a stable pH if you have hard water with high TA.

 

[DougJack]

You would need to reference your warranty material to see if salt is explicitly prohibited. Some outline this & some are vague.
Many choose to wait until after the warranty period is over to add salt just to play it safe. You’d need to determine your own risk tolerance on that one.
Voiding the warranty & actually causing damage are two different things. As I am sure you are aware most manufacturers these days look for any reason to avoid honoring a warranty.
I have a “cheapish” spa that has no specific salt clause and I was willing to take the risk and do my own repairs if necessary so I went salt immediately 6 years ago- YMMV.

Fwiw the units I referenced above use less salt than most swcg pools.
Saltron mini is 2000-2400ppm. & small controlomatic units is 500- 2000ppm.

For reference a little over 1 gallon of 10% liquid chlorine will increase salt by 500 ppm in a 400 gal tub. Thats 3ppm worth for 83 days. With A high use tub this will be faster.
Dichlor, Muriatic acid, and sweaty people also add to the salt concentration.
Unfortunately we see salt get blamed for alot of things in pools & spas, often times this is actually due to misinformation that having a saltwater chlorine generator means there is no maintenance so people tend to neglect their chemistry and things go awry.

Thanks, I understand what you are saying. As I have dug into it further, there are several perceived risks. One relatively small one is over chlorination, but the others are general sensitivities of materials to salt itself. I imagine this is becoming less of a factor as salt water pools become more popular.

 

[DougJack]

@DougJack I see that you're in Wyoming in mountains very similar to those just west of my city (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) (same mountain range I think) which is a few hundred miles north of you. The geology of the mountains there is essentially the same as the mountains here and the mountains here are predominantly made out of limestone which is calcium carbonate and dolomitic limestone which is also calcium carbonate but with some of the calcium being replaced by magnesium so calcium-magnesium carbonate. Those minerals are soluble so the groundwater you have in your well will likely be of the calcium-magnesium bicarbonate water type. Knowing that, you should expect your well water to have high calcium hardness and high total alkalinity. Just as an FYI, total alkalinity is basically a measure of how much carbonate and bicarbonate is in the water. At neutral pH and close to neutral pH, the concentration of carbonate (CO3) will be quite small compared to that of bicarbonate (HCO3) so in the pH ranges you'll be dealing with, total alkalinity is basically just a measure of what the concentration of bicarbonate is in your water.

I don't know what the TA of your well water is but I'm sure it's well over 100 mg/L or ppm. Where I am, the rivers my city gets water from come down from the Rockies and along the way here that water runs over a lot of limestone that has washed down from the mountains. As it does that, it dissolves a lot of that limestone and becomes a Calcium-magnesium bicarbonate type water with a lot of calcium hardness. Total hardness of my city water ranges from 126 - 262 ppm, depending on which of the two rivers your water is coming from and what time of the year it is. Total Alkalinity ranges from about 110 - 140 ppm in the river I get my drinking water from.

With high total alkalinity like what your well water is likely to have, you will have problems maintaining a stable pH unless you follow the startup procedures specified in the "How do I Use Chlorine (or Bromine) in my spa or hot tub?" postings. If you can bleed your TA down to about 60 ppm at startup following those procedures, you will be set up for success and maintaining a stable pH afterwards will not be much of a problem. Failing to get your TA down to 60 ppm or so at startup will result in you chasing your pH around a lot and I know this from experience because getting a stable pH of 7.5 used to give me fits before I discovered this website and learned about what you need to do to get a stable pH if you have hard water with high TA.

Hi DangerBoy! You are right - we are at 6700 on an obsidian laced calcium rich mountain. My Calcium Hardness and TA are both 150 ppm or slightly higher. Thankfully we don't have a lot of metals and I have conditioned the water with a multi layer activated carbon source and some funny science that "pre crystalizes" the carbonates via some resin patterns. The water tastes great and the pipes don't seem to get a lot of deposits. Heat from a hot tub can change all of the precautions though. This is all new to me and I'm driving toward simplicity- if I can. I'm presently assuming I can work with an always on Clear-Ray because that seems to be the pump mode. I'm purging tomorrow and then refilling. I'll use the dichlor until 20-30 CYA ppm, then liquid chlorine. Then I guess it's the process to drop TA close to 50 via muriatic and aeration, and settle the pH at the mid 7s. Hoping that I can target 1-2 ppm Cl.

 

[Mdragger88]

Hoping that I can target 1-2 ppm Cl.

ALWAYS follow the
FC/CYA Levels

 

[DougJack]

ALWAYS follow the
FC/CYA Levels

As I understand it it, one can’t. The UV from the lamp rapidly depletes the chlorine to 1 - 2 ppm, where it appears to stabilize. The highly oxidative UV does act as an effective sanitizer however and also directly reduces the chloramines and pathogens in the water.

 

[DougJack]

As I understand it it, one can’t. The UV from the lamp rapidly depletes the chlorine to 1 - 2 ppm, where it appears to stabilize. The highly oxidative UV does act as an effective sanitizer however and also directly reduces the chloramines and pathogens in the water.

Actually I don't think that UV is an oxidizer and I don't imagine that it would affect the water chemistry. The higher energy photons primarily destroy the pathogens/bugs/viruses etc., but it takes the chlorine to actually oxidize and remove their remains.

 

[DougJack]

Hi, I got the hot tub to stabilize around 50 ml of liquid 12.5% Cl per day. I left for a few weeks while a friend was watching over things and after one day back the FC went upside down. I would put 50ml of Cl in and within an hour it was down to near zero. I found CCs as well and I thought maybe something big had died in the water, but not much chance. I put in 250ml over 1 1/2 days with no change. I thought about it and checked my CYA and it was zero. Somehow it had oxidized away. I found that this was possible through UV based acceleration. So...I used some dry acid and got it up to 23ppm of CYA. The Cl now behaved much like before. This allowed me to start the transition to a Saltron-Mini. I had a residual of 680ppm of salt so over 2 hours I added 2.8 kilos of Diamond salt. I ran the jets for one cycle - about 30 minutes I think - and then adjusted the CF for 4ppm and plugged in the SWG. My question now is why is the water cloudy? It has always been clear before. Some quick #s. Thanks in advance!!
FC=3
pH=7.5
CYA=22
Salt=2120
CC=1
TA=50
CH=150
Borates=50
T=104