South Alabama build - conclusion

[cowboycasey]

I would do the grid because I believe it is safer than just 1 wire running under your pavers... The grid is replicating the rebar in a concrete deck that must be connected and bonded... The statement above is correct, it really comes down to the inspector if you have an inspector.. Do you want to "get away" with a cheaper option that "may" put you or your families life in danger if something happened? (not saying it will and hopefully nothing ever happens)

It would be way cheaper in the long run> say if you only ran the 1 wire, finished the paver install and when your getting out of the pool or reaching into the pool and you feel a constant shock and figure out it is not bonded enough and you have to tear out your entire deck, install the bonding grid and reinstall the deck... How much do you think that will cost?

In the end it is your pool, we are just trying to help

I would do exactly the same connection you have on the pool now just put it on the bottom like you were talking about (really in the end your just keeping the bonding grid connected to your pool frame so it does not move)..

you will also be using a water bonding kit like one of these..

2″ Fitting, Stainless Steel wire & #8 Copper Split Bolt <span> Case Qty. 10</span> - Consolidated Manufacturing

Install inline below the water level. WATER BOND FITTING WaterBond150™, WaterBond200™ Bond Water quickly and economically Get your Above-Ground or Fiberglass / Vinyl Liner Pool Electrical Permit Approved! Case Qty. 10

www.cmiwebsite.com

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Amazon.com: Burndy BWB680AG Waterbug Mechanical connectors, silver: Home Improvement

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[tim5055]

I second @cowboycasey and the recommendation to do a Equipotential Bonding Grid under pavers and a water bond of some flavor. While many of these water bonds are designed to be in a pipe, I'm a fan of one in the skimmer. A pipe can be broken or valved off so there is no longer continuity thru that pipe. As long as there is water in the pool, the skimmer has water in it.

Not knowing the design, any metal within 6 feet of the pool also must be attached to the grid. That may include ladders, fences, and maybe slides/diving boards. Make sure a wire goes where these things will be installed before the pavers go down.

 

[Auburn02]

Very good info - I'm not opposed to adding the grid by any means, but I can be sure it's not included in my quote since the decking is not part of the pool quote - looks like I couldn't have the PB add it anyway, since it needs to be above the packed crusher run (which he will be doing) just before setting the deck pavers. I presume I would just leave the existing #8 wire in place (after relocating it underneath the wall lip) and then tie the grid into that wire at numerous points around the pool?

I'm also not sure there is any water bond installed currently, but that's not to say we're done by any stretch either. Will ask the builder about that as well. I did find this from my county, which has no effective date on it but does appear to be current and it also doesn't mention a thing about a water bond, which makes me think if local inspectors don't require it, he's not planning to do it.

https://www.mobilecountyal.gov/uploads/electrical-req-vinyl-pools-info-sheet.pdf

We originally had plans to use an old school Amerlite housings which I believe would have accomplished a water bond (perhaps?), but switched to Microbrites which will not. Again I'm not at all opposed to adding it even if not required by the county inspector, but I need to figure that out now because the skimmer is already partially buried. Unless there is another way to introduce a water bond in a more maintenance-friendly spot...

We will have no ladders, no handrails, no diving board, no slide, and no fence within 6 feet of the water's edge.

 

[tim5055]

I presume I would just leave the existing #8 wire in place (after relocating it underneath the wall lip) and then tie the grid into that wire at numerous points around the pool?

You seem to be on top of it and are more involved than may owners we see.

The NEC says the bonding must be attached to the pool at four locations equidistant around the perimeter. I will guess that is how many attachments the builder had already set.

 

[Auburn02]

You seem to be on top of it and are more involved than may owners we see.

And boy does my wife hate it.

The NEC says the bonding must be attached to the pool at four locations equidistant around the perimeter. I will guess that is how many attachments the builder had already set.

Actually there are eleven! It appears to be one attachment for each section of aluminum liner track (presume they are 8' sections). Also while walking the perimeter I came across these guys - what are they?

 

[Auburn02]

So I googled those words on the side and it appears those are anchor sockets for a ladder - would make sense based on where I found them located (deep end), but we did not request/order a ladder so I'm guessing it's just another thing the crew "always does" when laying out the bond wire even though it's not part of our order and as such they'll be reclaimed. Back to the water bond hunt I go! Any reason to opt for the buried skimmer plate instead of something like this installed at the equipment pad (I'm assuming the lines to the pump and filter always have water in them even when not running)?

Perma-Cast Pool Water Bonding Kit

Buy a Above Ground Perma-Cast Pool Water Bonding Kit. A properly bonded pool means a safe swimming environment for your family and friends.

www.thepoolfactory.com

Of course there's still a chance the builder has a plan - they will install the main drain(s) when preparing the floor ahead of liner, maybe they'll do something there like I've read about on the forum - but I still like to play out all the possibilities in my head.

 

[cowboycasey]

Those are for ladders and your deep end may require ladders to be installed...

You really want the skimmer one because during winter you will blow the lines out and have no water in the pipe... this will break the water bond and can shock someone if they stick there hand or body in the water...

 

[Auburn02]

Those are for ladders and your deep end may require ladders to be installed...

Not sure about it being a requirement here, if so we'll do it but builder presented it as an option which we declined.

You really want the skimmer one because during winter you will blow the lines out and have no water in the pipe... this will break the water bond and can shock someone if they stick there hand or body in the water...

Understand what you're saying - though we won't winterize the pool here, it'll run year round - but still understand there is some chance those lines could be dry at some point. Thanks!

 

[tim5055]

Understand what you're saying - though we won't winterize the pool here, it'll run year round - but still understand there is some chance those lines could be dry at some point. Thanks!

Even if not dry, if there are valves it could break the continuity. The in line ones meet code, it just comes down to your comfort level.....

Keep asking questions - it's your pool!

 

[Auburn02]

Uh, thanks I guess for whoever merged the threads - I brought up this question in my build thread yesterday afternoon, had no comments on it and it quickly sank in the very active under construction forum - I suspect some people just don't have time or desire to read every build thread for any specific question that might come up in them. So I opened a new thread specific to this concern in what I thought was a more appropriate subforum and very quickly got tons of valuable help from Casey and Tim. Thanks again guys.

 

[Auburn02]

Well I didn't know this was happening today, but the county inspector just came and left. In relation to my question about the attachment of the bond wire to the liner track, he seemed to feel a stainless through bolt to attach the wire underneath would be acceptable. When I asked if we required a water bond here he said we do, but it's typically accomplished by a metal light niche (which I don't have) or a metal ladder (which I don't plan to have but the anchors are on site and that's what he would sign off on) - I told him I don't plan to have the ladder, so he said when he comes back for the next inspection if the ladder isn't there he'll expect to see another form of water bond which is pretty much what I was planning to ensure happens anyway.

It was also made absolutely clear that we don't have a requirement in place for a full grid, only the #8 bonding wire which is already there. I will still likely improve on that but I'm up in the air whether I will buy a full grid to the tune of another $800-$1000, but at the very least I will pick up another couple hundred feet of #8 copper and run a second ring around the outside of the first, something I saw suggested in a prior thread by @bdavis466 - I'd be tying it into the first ring every 8-12' or so and ensure it gets embedded just below the pavers. And that brings up another point, I see commentary about laying the copper just below the pavers and then code language about placing it 4-6" below final grade...so which is it? Any concerns with that approach? Not trying to make it sound like I'm cheaping out at the expense of safety, just trying to be practical as well.

Side note: if I do purchase the mesh grid kit, how well do those rolls contour to a curved edge pool anyway? I find it hard to believe I could run it continuously around the perimeter of the pool without cutting it up into chunks.

 

[Nikilyn]

What does the bonding wire do? I’ve heard of them but have never understood their purpose.

 

[Auburn02]

What does the bonding wire do? I’ve heard of them but have never understood their purpose.

I wish I could explain it but I'm barely hanging on - I think in a nutshell, it ties all conductive materials together (from the pump to the water to the metal parts that touch the water to the decking that could be conductive when wet, etc) to ensure they are all of the same voltage. Thus if one of said items becomes charged, they are all equally charged and there is less or no chance of shock (or worse) for a person bridging the two objects of different voltage, maybe? Now, I have no idea what that means if the water is charged and that same person goes from the water to the wet deck and then steps 5 feet away to a metal chair or table, etc.

 

[cowboycasey]

I think the 2 single strands would work and do the same thing as a grid, the grid is the easy and fast way for a company to "get it done fast"

As for where it goes and what depth under the pavers I have no idea... it would probably be way easier to do it on the last compact before the last 1/2 inch of sand before the pavers are installed, that would put the copper about 1.5 to 2 inches below the pavers and have the most contact with the sand and therefore the most contact with the pavers...

 

[Auburn02]

I think the 2 single strands would work and do the same thing as a grid, the grid is the easy and fast way for a company to "get it done fast"

As for where it goes and what depth under the pavers I have no idea... it would probably be way easier to do it on the last compact before the last 1/2 inch of sand before the pavers are installed, that would put the copper about 1.5 to 2 inches below the pavers and have the most contact with the sand and therefore the most contact with the pavers...

That was my thought too Casey, I thought the point of the wire/grid under the deck was to ensure the deck is at the same potential as the pool/equipment, and I'm no electrical expert but 4-6" underneath the surface just seems like a long way to me if it could be closer to the surface. Maybe that's based on the assumption that a typical concrete deck is 4" thick? But I believe we'll do just as mentioned and get it embedded in the last layer before the pavers. Might be fun trying to work around the wire to pack down the paver base but I guess that wire is quite malleable, we can just flip it up vertically and then lay it back down when ready.

 

[Auburn02]

Spoke with the builder, he does plan to install a T (in ground, recessed in an access box) for a water bond near the equipment pad so that should be handled. He wasn't comfortable with the idea of through-bolting to attach the bond wire lugs underneath the polymer frame, but did seem to think the paver installer could drill/notch the pavers to allow the lugs to recess into the bottom of the pavers. I'll send that guy some pics and see what he thinks, in the meantime I'm still trying to find some build pics of a similar pool (polymer wall, vinyl liner, paver decking) to see how others have done it. Point me that way if you know of any threads!

 

[cowboycasey]

I really do not think you need them connected to the frame at all unless they are connecting directly to the aluminum track somehow... They are doing it because that is what they do on a metal framed pool and that is what they always do... but it is not metal and connecting it will do nothing except hold the copper wire in place..

 

[Auburn02]

I really do not think you need them connected to the frame at all unless they are connecting directly to the aluminum track somehow... They are doing it because that is what they do on a metal framed pool and that is what they always do... but it is not metal and connecting it will do nothing except hold the copper wire in place..

The lugs/bond wire definitely are attached to the aluminum liner track:

View attachment 168545

Even still, despite the builder's comment that the lug itself needs to sit on the track, a stainless through bolt would still carry continuity from the wire to the track if attached underneath the polymer lip. Unless I'm failing to see why that couldn't work.

 

[cowboycasey]

I see it in that picture clearly... I would say the same thing, use a through bolt and a big stainless steel washer on the topside to spread out the connection point on the track..

Please, please use ox guard on the bolt, the track, the washer and everything it touches... this will conduct and protect the metals from corrosion...

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[Auburn02]

These guys are sneaky, not sure when they came and did this but walked around the side of the house today and we have a water bond. PB was by for just a few minutes yesterday taking a few additional measurements for the liner, I’m hopeful that meant it was “on the assembly line” or at least very close.