Solar Power Heating System

Hi Dana, what is a "Solar Power Heating system?" And what is a "Passive Solar Heater?" I know a bit about pool solar heaters (I installed my own), just checking that I understand your terms. Are you talking about roof top solar panels, through which you pump your pool water, that then heats your pool? Seems like you have one of those. Is there something specific you're looking to know, or just general knowledge about them?
 
Gotcha. I don't know if TFP has such a doc or page. There are many threads on the subject, which you can search for (I've stuck my nose in a few of those!). I found this website to be especially helpful before I installed. There are many others (google!). This one has a few cool animations that explain various principles and best practices. They helped me understand about the flow direction, how to tilt the panels, how the actuator valve and check valve work together, bypass valves, most everything. Here's the page with the animations, gotta scroll to see them all:


If you have a specific question that falls within my limited knowledge about the topic, I'll try to help.
 
Thank you for the the great link. After my first cursory perusal, I believe my water flow setup may not be the "typical" setup.
I need to read & watch to better understand how the system is suppose to run and & how to manage it.
There is one question - If you have the input to the Solar Rooftop fully open & the output from the Solar Rooftop fully closed, will this cause damage?
Thanks,
Dana
 
If your plumbing has some sort of bypass valve setup for your solar plumbing, and it is set to send some water to the panels and the rest to your pool, then you might be OK. But if your pump is running and you send all of its flow to your panels, with no exit, then yes I would expect something would give. Most likely where your panels heat exchange tubes connect to the panel's manifold. But you could blow out your filter, a weak PVC joint, the vacuum breaker, etc. Maybe several of those things. Why do you ask? Why would you do that?
 
If you're going to be looking for other answers, you might take several pictures of your pad's plumbing, from several angles, so we can see what you've got. And/or make a sketch of your plumbing, similar to what you saw on that webpage, so we can see that, too. Thx! If you've only got a one-speed pump, then you might (should) have a bypass setup, so that you can regulate the flow through your panels. Otherwise, they're likely getting to much flow and not heating as efficiently as they could. We'll check that out when we see your pics or diagram.
 
If your plumbing has some sort of bypass valve setup for your solar plumbing, and it is set to send some water to the panels and the rest to your pool, then you might be OK. But if your pump is running and you send all of its flow to your panels, with no exit, then yes I would expect something would give. Most likely where your panels heat exchange tubes connect to the panel's manifold. But you could blow out your filter, a weak PVC joint, the vacuum breaker, etc. Maybe several of those things. Why do you ask? Why would you do that?

I don't plan on doing it. I am trying to understand & write some documentation for myself to ensure I don't make the mistake.
Dana
 
If you look at the diagrams, you'll notice that there is a three-way valve (this way or that way) that sends water to the roof or directly to the pool, or even some amount to both at the same time. But on the return side (coming down from the roof) there is no "on-off" valve, but a check valve instead. The check valve allows water to pass out of the panels, but does not allow any water to travel the other way. More importantly, it can't be closed off. This is the safeguard against what you are asking about. That is how your system should be plumbed, or corrected to if it is not, so that you or anybody else cannot accidentally blow things up. A qualified installer would not have put two "shut off" valves on both sides. If your system was installed by someone of, say, lesser knowledge, then it's possible. But again, that should be corrected.
 
My system has some quirks. I have updated my signature with more info about the parts in the system.
I have attached a Water Flow Graphical Chart similar to the one on the website(graphics are plain though).
The Jandy/Fafco 3-way valve is setup in a non-standard way. (Not my doing:))
I will have to look to see if I have drains valves.
 

Attachments

  • Water Flow Chart.pdf
    19.1 KB · Views: 22

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
OK, great job on the diagram. Your system is not plumbed correctly (I think you already know that). It's not as fool-proof as it should be. And it's not as easy/simple to adjust as it could be. Are you thinking of correcting it, or just figuring out how best to run it as is?

I and others here can help you with either, but that's it for me for tonight. Grab some pictures when it's light, and we can go from there.

One question so far: where you use the label "union," is that just a PVC "Tee" fitting, or something else? A union is a threaded fitting that connects just two pipes together, not three. Or a pipe to a component. It's typically used for easy disconnecting, like at your pump or filter, so that you can swap out components without cutting and re-gluing PVC. The term "union" is sometimes applied to a three-way valve, as in three-way union valve, but for clarity, let's call a Tee a Tee and the three-way valve a three-way valve. And save "union" for what I described. That's what we use here at TFP.

union.jpg
 
Last edited:
Hi Dana, I think you misunderstood. I was suggesting you simply edit the title of your original post to attract more help. There was a lot of good info already posted over there and anyone trying to help could get a better feel for what you are trying to understand and accomplish without re-asking many questions. You should aways try to maintain one post per subject. If you look at the very top right of the post you will see a three dot menu that allows you to edit the title of the post. Perhaps Dirk could help get these threads merged and renamed... :)

 
Dana, well, you've got a bit of a situation here on the forum in that you've started two threads about essentially the same topic, and you've now got multiple people chiming in, some of whom have pinged others to join in. Maybe a mod will choose to straighten that out (@mknauss?). This is what I see and what I would do.
Water Flow Chart Revised.jpg
The short of it is, your system was not properly plumbed. It's likely a DIY job by some previous owner that got it to work. And your last pool guy somehow figured it out. I suppose you could try the same, you have been, but you've got several issues that a replumb could solve, the two biggest are that your system is too confusing to use, and that there are some built in hazards to your pump (your pump can be blocked on both the suction side and the pressure side) if someone turns a valve or two the wrong way.

I'm making a few assumptions. That by "union" you meant "tee" and that your pool equipment is not located lower than your pool (the only reason I can think of for valves A and B to remain), and that A and B are fed by two skimmers. So...

Valves A and B shouldn't exist. That should have been a single three-way valve, that you could use to balance your skimmers. As a three-way, it would allow any amount of flow from either skimmer, but would never allow both skimmers to be closed off at the same time (which protects your pump). "Union" F would go away. Plus, ball valves are prone to failure and shouldn't be used in outdoor pool plumbing.

Valves C and D shouldn't exist either. I can think of no reason you'd want to isolate your panels with those, but a few reasons you should never. Either of those valves closed could block the output of your pump. That's bad. And both closed would block your panels from properly draining after use, or possibly damage them by trapping super-heated or frozen water, either of which is not gonna end well. Consider what expansion and contraction will do to panels and plumbing up on the roof with both valves closed! Until you get this fixed, never close either of those valves.

Union G and valve E are in the wrong place. And your system is missing a check valve. Refer to the drawings I linked. That's how your system needs to be replumbed. This is what's causing most of your confusion. If the three-way (E) was where it should be, in place of union G, the controller could do it's job (turning solar on and off) and E could also be used to bypass some of your pump's flow to the panels (in case your one-speed's flow rate is too much for your panels). The missing check valve and union G should be located after the panels.

Other considerations: three-way E needs to be a special type of valve, known as a "Solar Drain Down." That type of valve functions as a normal three-way when the pump is running, but with pump off the drain-down feature allows both ends of your solar plumbing to drain out all the water. This prevents super-heating and freezing, as the panels should be virtually empty of water when not in use, especially in the winter. If E is not a drain down valve, it should be replaced with one. And if it's salvageable could be used in front of the pump, to replace A and B.

There needs to be a vacuum breaker in the system. Is there? Sometimes it is on the roof, but it can also be near the pad. Generally it needs to be some number of feet above ground (six or so, I think). That breaker allows air into the panels when the pump is off so they can properly drain.

There are a couple of make-shift ways to determine the proper amount of flow through your panels. The manufacturer might be able to provide you with the proper amount. With E where it should be, you could adjust the flow to the panels to achieve the proper amount. It probably is doing that now, as you say one position is "halfway." You can sort'a calculate the amount of flow, using math and perhaps the pressure gauge? I don't know how to do that. Other "old timers" can judge the proper flow by feeling how warm the return water gets. Too hot, and the flow is too low, etc. I wanted to optimize my panels, so I installed a FlowVis. My panels' manufacturer spec's 40GPH, and that's exactly what mine get. I adjust flow to them using my variable speed pump while viewing the FlowVis flow meter. With a single speed pump you'd use valve E and the meter.

So here's my recommendation, then I gots to get to work. Do this right. Let go of trying to figure out what you've got. Hire a qualified plumber, ideally from a solar heater installation company, to come out and replumb your pad. He'll know exactly what to do, and bang it out. Bite the bullet and spring for whatever new parts you don't have. Have him get rid of the parts you don't need. If you purchase a FlowVis flow meter, they function as a check valve. So if you used that for your missing check valve, you could dial in the flow to the panels precisely using valve E (or it's replacement if E is not a drain-down valve).

It might be only a few hundred dollars for parts, and maybe that much more for the plumber. For that dough your system would be entirely foolproof in terms of protecting your new pump, and be soooo much easier to use, and remember how to use. For both you and others in your household, and for the next owner.

If you instead want to continue down the path of figuring out how to use what you have, then others in your other thread can help you with that. Good luck either way.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cowboycasey
Does your roof section for the panels face south?
That's important to know in advance.
Not sure I agree with that. Mine are on the north side, and actually get more sun during swim season than they would on the south side. Doesn't really matter for this discussion, as Dana is not likely going to move them or even be able to. The solution she's looking for, for the plumbing, is the same either way. Unless I'm missing something...

(PS. Dana, not that it matters, or you need to answer, but pronoun-wise, are you a "she" Dana or a "he" Dana? :))
 
Last edited:
Sorry for any confusion on starting a new thread. In my original thread I was trying to understand how the individual components worked, especially the 3-way valve with an actuator. Once I understood that, I thought discussion about the overall Solar heating system was not appropriate for plumbing, etc.

Thank you very much for the information. I believe I understand it now. I kept using terms "On" & "Off" that were listed on the Auto Pool control panel literally.
After studying the recommended link, I came to realize the better terms to use are "Solar Only" or Pool/Solar Mix" for the Auto Pool control panel.

My Solar panels are roof top panels facing the South/West & get plenty of sun. The plumbing system, (correct term?) is at ground level equal to the top of the pool.

Yes, I will change the "Union" to "Tee".

Of all the valves, "A" & "B" were the two I thought were OK. :) Will switching to a 3-way valve solve the issue of one of the skimmer baskets always wanting to float? It is the skimmer located closest to the plumbing system.

I think valves "C" & "D" did get closed about the time of my new pool maintenance guy.

I never have inspected the Roof Top portion of the system. Need to do this & confirm whether there are Drain Valves & the Solar Temperature Gage is working properly.

I appreciate your suggested improvements. They will probably come when I have the pool surface repaired. I have created an "Improvement" document with all of your suggestions. I will probably show this to the future repair person.
I have updated all my "How to use the current system" documentation. I have attached the lastest version.

Thank you all for your valuable insights and patience.

Mr. Dana
P.S. Dirk, very rarely has anyone on-line had the forsight to ask about my name. :) I regularly get "carded" when I am making purchases with a credit card.
 

Attachments

  • Pool System Schematic.20200824.pdf
    34.3 KB · Views: 3
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk
Good plan! Happy to help, sir! (y)

Just wanted to correct one thing you wrote: "Solar Only or Pool/Solar Mix". It's entirely possible that's what's happening with your current valving, but that's not what you want to end up with. It should be "Pool Only or Pool/Solar Mix". So that when the solar panels are offline, no water is being sent to the panels, and all the water is sent directly to the pool. When the solar panels are able to heat the water and are brought on line, you'll then channel some of the water to the panels and the rest to the pool. Because I can vary the flow with my pump, all my water goes through the panels. Because you can't vary your flow, and if your panels cannot handle (or don't need) all the flow your single speed supplies, you'll vary the flow through your panels by only sending part of the flow up there, the rest, unheated, to the pool. So really, "split" would be as accurate as "mix."

It kinda looks to me, how the drawing is now, that it's possible that you're sending water to the roof all the time, because the "route" to the roof seems to be available to the pump all the time, regardless of what the three-way is doing. If that is the case, then you could be cooling your pool as much as heating it. And if that is the case, once you straighten this out, you might find your pool gets warmer (fingers crossed)! I half suspect the original plumber put those two isolation valves in there to keep that from happening. It's all very weird.

Now on the suction side, it's more accurate to say "mixing" the water from the two skimmers. And yes, I suspect if you have a three-way there you'll be able to tune your skimmers to best suit your skimming needs, including holding down the basket. To be clear, you can do that with the two separate ball valves, too. That's not what's wrong with that plumbing. It's the fact that both valves could be closed off (or partially closed off too much) that jeopardizes the pump. Either setup can mix, the three-way would do it more "safely."
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cowboycasey
I should have mentioned: after determining which ball valve controls which skimmer, if one of the skimmers is under-performing, then you would close the other skimmer's ball valve, in small increments, until the weak one works better. Keep in mind, it's a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" situation. Also that for best performance (pool and pump), one of the two ball valves should always be 100% open.

Closing either valve any amount will (theoretically) affect the flow to the panels, though it could be negligible. Something else that would be revealed if you had a flow meter inline. I thought I would use my meter just once, to optimize the pump's flow rate for my panels, and then that would be the pump setting forever. Turns out that's not the case. My vacuum use, by high-speed skimmer pump setting, and especially the filter condition all affect flow through my panels. So I adjust pump and scheduling accordingly. Most helpful is keeping an eye on the filter condition. The filter's pressure gauge is the "warning system" for the "clogging level" of my cartridges, but it's the flow meter that allows me to fine-tune the flow to the panels based on how my filter is performing. My SWG is affected, too. As is my vacuum's performance. I clean my cartridges just once a year, so I keep an eye on flow rate throughout the year, and goose the pump RPMs throughout the year as needed. So that my panels, vaccum and SWG always get the optimal flow rate. You could do something similar with your three-way solar valve.

By the way, my solar panel's manual gave me the optimum flow rate per panel (5 GPH), which I then multiply by 8 panels. That's where I got my 40 GPH spec. If you pursue this for your setup, you'd need to see if you could dig up the manufacturer's spec for your panels.
 
Last edited:
If they come back justifying the way they plumbed that, do share, because I'd like to understand why they did it that way. You've probably already discovered, if you google "pool solar panel plumbing" you'll get dozens of diagrams. But they all use the same basic layout and principles.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.