shocking in-ground pool with swg and metal issues

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timb9

timb9

0
Sep 10, 2013
21
Stellarton, NS
Hi everyone,

I've had iron and staining problems since I acquired this pool five years ago. Thanks to the awesome experts on this wonderful site, I have self educated myself way more than I ever imagined about pools :D. I'm not on well water- its town water, but its had some issues in the past and may have trace amounts of metal. The source water has tested 0 iron with a water lab last fall, and I've drained and refilled a large percentage of the pool water this spring and it tested 0 iron at the pool store. Each year in the past I seemed to get metal staining on walls and liner when starting up in the spring, and throughout the summer unfortunately:(. I normally use liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) as my pool is always a little green in the spring. It isn't super green right now, but I can't see the bottom of the deep end. Even though its not available in this part of Canada, I was able to get some Jack's Purple metal sequestrant shipped to me, which I will add before shocking, and I have CuLator metal removers that I will use in the baskets. Since the iron levels are reading 0, I'm 'praying' there won't be issues this time, but I want to be careful anyway and try to avoid any problems. I am simply not up for the absorbic acid process- been there done that! The bad combination that sets off the stains is high PH and high chlorine levels. My question is- what to use to shock the pool while keeping ph as low as possible. I've read mixed opinions on what raises ph and what doesn't. I will make sure the ph will be at 7.2 when I start adding chlorine. I know the recommended action for shocking with any algae is liquid chlorine (bleach) because it does the best job clearing up algae. Should I be monitoring the PH as I go and add Muriatic Acid to counter the rise? I'm not posting any readings because they'll all be changing soon. Alk is in range on the low side, no stabilizer or salt has been added yet. Thanks so much for any advice!!
 
Hi, thanks so much again. Got my new pump up and running and acquired some more algae thanks to a couple of hot days, but now its unseasonable cold and rainy which helps. I've been slamming with liq chl 10% the last two days and the pool looks much better- blue but not clear yet. I added some stabilizer but pretty sure not much has dissolved and I put more in a sock on the side. My Taylor test kit is showing under 20 for CYA. When I vacuum, I'll hold off on backwashing since it will prob suck up some stabilizer crystals. Also, since I drained my pool most of the way down earlier this spring, I don't have much salt in there now. I think the last test I had read 1,000. PH is 7.2 and Alk is always low- around 70. My total chlorine is just reading 1, but no free chl. My question is what number should I shock to? I don't think I should use the SWG shock chart since I don't have the SWG running. I never know if I should add all the liq chl at once or spread it out. I added 5 ltrs two nights ago, then 10 more ltrs last night, then 5 more this morn. The pool calc shows that I should hit 30 ppm with that, but it will need more. Any help is appreciated!
 
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30 ppm FC is too high. Shock level is the same for SWG or non-swg. Use the shock level for the amount of CYA that you added to the pool, assume it is dissolved and available. [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA].
 
Well, just another update. After keeping PH low and shocking to 10 ppm FC to clear it up and get rid of the algae, my pool was green again this morning, but its the metals. Should have been clear and blue done by now. Incredibly disappointing after all the effort and with the pool store test showing now metals in the water. Almost seems it may be a combination of iron and copper. Steps are light brown and the water is green. I'm down to my last option and that is to drain the entire pool and refill. Fill water has tested clear of metals, so it should fix my problem. Not to sound pessimistic, but after five years of trying everything in the book to deal with this and spending hundred of dollars and hours upon hours reading about pool issues on this great site and other places, this is the only thing left to do. I've done the Absorbic acid treatment many times over the years, and it works for a while, but inevitably the stains returned. From what I've learned here, the metals are oxidized more from high chlorine than high ph, because I've had my PH very low through the shocking process the last few days. Once the chlorine levels get low enough, I will attempt to get the stains to lift off the surfaces and then drain to the bottom and refill.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks pooldv- I guess what I'm talking about is the chart showing higher recommended cya for SW pools- 70-80 cya. I really appreciate your help!
 
If you are sure your fill water doesn't have iron, why not try to create a 5 gallon bucket filter, and filter the oxidized iron out? This worked for us, and since we stay topped off with iron free rainwater, we haven't had to deal with staining or use sequestrants. If we had to top off on a regular basis, this wouldn't work.
 
No doubt that metals in the pool can be incredibly frustrating to deal with. It sounds like yours is iron more than copper. Iron is a more common problem. Copper only gets into the water if added by using copper based algaecide, Clorox blue products containing copper, etc.

Yes, higher levels of FC will definitely cause raining to recur. High pH can also.

Draining and filling with known metal-free water is the best option if you can. But, fully draining a vinyl liner pool is risky. The liner can shift or shrink and then tear when refilling, especially older liners. We recommend leaving at least foot of water in the pool when draining. Using rain water to top off will also help. It sounds like you have iron in your fill water. Are the orange stains in toilet tanks, faucets, etc?

Testing for metals is not always reliable if the metal s sequestered or deposited in a stain then it may not show up in a test. Metal tests are mostly only conclusive if they are positive. False negatives are fairly common.

Were you using a maintenance dose of sequestrant to keep the metal in suspension? Once stains are lifted a sequestrant needs to be added once a month or so to keep the metal in suspension. Chlorine will slowly break down the sequestrant and stains will return, usually on stairs or skimmer plastic parts first. Usually, if you add sequestrant as soon as you see a stain show up it will lift the stain. Then note what the dose was and how long to the next stain to get an idea how much and how often to add more.

More here, Pool School - Metals in the Water and Metal Stains
 
Thanks rwood, I've seen the videos online- from what I've seen, it seems to work best for smaller above ground pools with well water that has heavy brown water. I could try it with a sump pump and a bucket. I'm up for trying anything. According to the fill water I sent in and had tested, there isn't iron in the fill water. You can see stains in the old toilet tanks that have the Styrofoam in them. Maybe the iron was heavier in the water in years past and I still have some of that in my pool. I thought draining it down to a foot in the shallow end and refilling would have helped my situation, but not so.To truck in fill water would cost me $1,000. My water is getting clear now and the stains will be on the sides and the bottom. Do you have to use absorbic acid to lift the stains before using the bucket and polyfill method? I have a couple of the CuLator bags in my skimmer, but they've never made a huge difference in my situation.
 
Thanks again pooldv- frustrating is an understatement! I would think its iron as well. Only reason i thought copper was because how green the water got. In the older toilets around here, there is dark brown staining in the insulation of the water tank and also can be seen somewhat on the sinks. I'm hoping there has been an improvement to the water over the years. What confuses me, is why wouldn't every pool in our neighborhood have the same issue? My neighbor and one other pool owner have mild metal problems. Anyway, I have a skimmer sock in place now and it is a brownish/orange rust color every time I take it out. I'm hoping this is removing some of the metals along with the CuLator- (I don't remember if the metals need to be oxidized or in suspension with a sequestrant for the Culator to be effective)?
I did drain the pool down to a foot in the shallow end and refilled about a month ago. I don't have a lot of faith in the water tests, especially when the water is being treated with sequestrants, etc and like you said, may be settled out on the liner as stains. I'm wondering if there was corroding in the heater years back, would it still be a problem now with better balanced water or would it continue leaching metals into the pool? The other issue I am going to address is the rocks and dirt near the pool. The previous owner had 3 trees with dirt around them close to the skimmer, along with another area of dirt and plants around the pool house. These were placed in the worst spot possible. I have cut the trees down and plan on removing the rocks and dirt and filling in with cement. Their was a major design flaw in that area of the pool deck as it slopes towards the pool instead of away, causing dirt, etc to run into the pool every time it rains.

I've used different sequestrants in the past with mixed results. In our area of Canada we don't have all the talked about products that are in the US pool stores. They're online, but very expensive with shipping, etc. I was able to get a rep to send me some Jacks Purple Stuff. I added almost a bottle and a half before adding chlorine this week. I thought that was going to help, but I think the Chlorine breaks everything down too fast. The thought of using Absorbic Acid, Algaecide (Poly60), keeping low Chlorine levels and not being able to shock the pool without it all repeating, really puts a damper on the pool season. If I could get it cleared up and knew the sequestrant would do its job all season, I could live with that. Hard to know how much to use. Maybe a seq test kit is my answer. I'm due for a new liner soon, maybe in a couple years- will probably get water trucked in at that point.
 

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Update with pics- I've been through all this before, so I try not to get too emotional about things and take it day by day and be patient!
This was the pool on Thurs.
IMG_4823.jpg
With the Chlorine doing its thing, then using Stain Free, and Jacks Purple Stuff, this is how it looked Fri. I plan on slowly increasing the Chl, keeping Ph low, and I would be so happy if I can keep it looking this good. Had pool water tested this weekend and showed .1 ppm or iron. If I can somehow keep it at that, I can probably manage it and deal with it.
IMG_4865.jpg
 
Pool-Medic, Thx for the words- I see ur up in the NE as well. Went through Bangor last year driving from Portland back to NS. I have been using a skim sock with two Culator packs and put some polyfill in the skimmer as well- I'm not positive it all helped, but the skim sock was a rusty orange for a couple of days, so I'm thinking it did. I know there was a lot of junk falling off the trees, but I'm not seeing the color on the skim sock now that the water went from green to blue. Still not positive if their is a small amount of metal that has accumulated in the pool water or if it keeps getting added in from another source. I will keep a good sequestrant going all summer as well. I'm hoping to have my heater looked at and get rid of rocks and dirt around the pool. Any trick that helps, I'm all for it!
 
I'm really, really hoping I can get some great advice before I totally lose it with my pool :mad. Did everything right with the AA treatment about a week and a half ago, slowly brought chlorine levels up, and now I'm back to stained liner and steps. I may have been a little late adding more sequestrant, but it had only been a week. I've been so careful, and have kept the PH low. The pool was slightly cloudy for a few days, but that cleared off and the stains are back. The Chl levels have been below 2.0 but with the SWG on now, it rose to 2.5 today and has seemed to make the stains even worse. Before I really noticed them, I had added Mur Acid and more sequestrant the night before hoping it would lift them, but it didn't. Now if I add AA again, not sure if I need more sequestrant again. I may try and add some Bioguard Sparkle Up to the filter. Not really up for going back and forth doing these treatments- the cost of the chemicals is crazy and I can't ever have the pool the way I want it. The short window when the pool looks good is right after adding the AA while there's no FC in the pool. Then it usually clouds up, takes a ton of Chl to get back to normal, then it all start over again. Not to mention I'm super nervous about getting an algae bloom even though I have Poly60 in there. If I'm having these issues with water that tests .1 ppm iron, how are others not having these problems? I'm completely at a loss. I wish I had used a shop vac behind the liner and taken my chances and drained the entire pool. I guess this wouldn't have been the final answer if there is a source that is continually adding metal to the pool- I just don't know what that is for sure. I need some anti-insanity advice!
 
I would guess it’s coming from either your well or municipal water, happens a lot in the spring. Your best defense is to never let the water go to the point it needs shocking. Keep the ph in check, always do weekly dosing of sequestrant and yes weekly poly quart 60 can battle an upcoming bloom.

i feel your pain, been there done that. Look online for cheaper stain remover, it does exist.
 
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Timb9, you have my sympathy. I wish, that I had a season as short as yours and glad I don't live in Florida. :cool: Anyway, I replied on another thread and you recently responded. From keeping the chlorine too low, I now have pink algae which is actually not algae but a bacteria. It is not that bad but will have to slam soon. I've been keeping regular algae under control with Poly 60 but forgot about the bacteria issue. Always something.
 
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