Saltwater woes!!! Newbie trying to figure this out. Please advise.

[mcdrmbldr]

Hello! I am new to the saltwater system. It is my understanding that electricity is used to produce chlorine ions using copper and titanium plates. I just bought a new saltwater/sand filter pump and it isn't producing any chlorine!!!!! My brother said that he thinks it is set up backwards. He said that the water should flow over the titanium plates first and then directly after, hit the copper probes. Our system is set up where the water hits the copper probes, goes through the sand filter, and then hits the titanium plates and then the pool. I don't know if this is a problem, but despite out best efforts and research and water testing, we can't get it to produce chlorine. So, my first question is, is my brother right? Does the water have to hit the titanium plates first and then the copper probe directly after it, or is our setup ok? The next question is, if our setup is ok, why isn't the pump producing chlorine? We are using the Intex Krystal Clear Sand Filter Pump 16" and Saltwater system. Model number CS20110. We have a 24' diameter AG pool that has about 13,500 gallons of water in it. We have tested the salt and it is 3100 parts per million. We also have tested the water and added the proper amounts of Cyn. acid (stabilizer). We have added muriatic acid to fix the alkalinity. Even when we can get the hardness to an o.k. level, the pH to an o.k. level, the alkalinity to an o.k. level, and the stabilizer to an o.k. level, we can't seem to get chlorine. We covered the pool to avoid chlorine loss due to the sun. We live in FL where it is hot and sunny and humid all of the time. Our water is cloudy and because of the lack of chlorine, it is green. I have tried for months to fix this and can't. Please help! I hate to think that I just bought a very expensive pump for nothing. We are spending lots of $$$$ on chemicals just to keep the levels right, and it just isn't working. We have to clean the plates daily and have had it in boost mode forever. It requires based on my manual for the pump to run for 9 hours a day (which means the boost runs for 36 hours). I feel like I don't know what I am doing, but I have followed everything in the manual to the tee. Any ideas?

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! First we will need to clear the water, then we can try to correct the problem with the SWG (saltwater chlorine generator). Please read through ABCs of pool water chemistry for more information on water chemistry.

Here at TFP we use the SLAM process to kill algae and clear the pool. You will need plain, unscented bleach as a chlorine source for the slam. You will also need a high quality FAS/DPD test kit such as a Taylor K2006 or TF 100 . Either of these kits will enable you to test the higher levels of chlorine needed during the slam process.

Please post a picture of your SWG. We need to see a close up of the SWG and a longer shot showing where it connects to the plumbing system. Also please post a set of current test results.

 

[GreatCanadian]

First of all, you do not need to use the copper probes. Most here will suggest to disconnect them. Secondly, I believe you have algae, and your SWG cannot produce enough chlorine to keep up with the demand. You need to SLAM your pool using the instructions available in pool school. My guess (though I could be wrong) is that your SWG is working fine, but cannot produce chlorine faster than it is being consumed by the algae. Follow the slam process as outlined in Pool School. When you pass the overnight chlorine loss test (OCLT), let your CL level drop back to the appropriate level for your CYA, and fire up your SWG.

Oh yeah, you need a good test kit (TF-100 is the primary choice among members), and post a full set of results.

 

[mcdrmbldr]

I am using "My Salt Pool" saltwater balance test strips bought at Wal-mart (I know...but it is what I can afford) and have tested everyday. Today's results are: Total hardness, B-100 low; Total chlorine, A-0 very low; Free chlorine, A-0 very low; PH, B-7.2 ok; Total Alkalinity, C-120 ok/low; Stabilizer, A-0 very low. I have to keep adding stabilizer...tons of it. We just added it, and it is already testing very low again. My husband got sick of the green and poured bleach into the pool (2 gallons just a couple of days ago). My guess is that we didn't SLAM properly, but how do you know what the shock level has to be if you can't even see what the stabilizer level is? I will buy the kit today, but need to do something NOW! The CYA/Chlorine chart that you sent a link for doesn't even have a CYA level of 0 on it. So, I don't know what the shock level should be. I would like to do the SLAM process before this algae gets out of control. What can I do until I get the test kit? Can you SLAM without a test kit?

 

[hyperionguy]

Welcome!!

First, quit adding 'tons' of stabilizer. Without knowing where the current level really is and you saying you added the 'proper amount' at first, it could become a problem. Can you quantify 'tons'? How much have you added in total? As for chlorine (bleach) you needed it, but that 2 gallons from 2 days ago is long gone if there is any green shade to your pool. It got consumed right away.

It isn't going to get much worse in the few days you'll wait for the proper test kit. You really can't do much without it other than keep adding bleach, which could benefit or not... until we know your CYA with accuracy (which strips and pool stores are bad at).

Please also put all of your details into your signature so people will know what you have: Pool brand, type, and size with gallon rating if you have it, which pump/filter and that you have a SWG. These are all important items for people to help you.

You have the filter/SWG combo setup properly. It only goes together one way. Most people disconnect the copper but I won't go into it here, you can search the archives for that info. If your salt level tests OK and the pump isn't giving you low salt or high salt warnings (whether real or erroneously) you can easily tell if it is generating chlorine. The cell is clear. After it has been running a few minutes, look around and between the titanium plates and you'll see lots of tiny air bubbles being created between the plates. If so, it is working fine but your pool has algae and it won't keep up. You'll also tend to see tiny bubbles clinging to the sides of your pool over time. They're coming from the cell.

A SWG creates chlorine slowly and is designed to provide daily dosage to a HEALTHY pool. "Boost" doesn't make it generate more chlorine per hour, it just makes it run longer and activates the copper (which doesn't do much). Getting a fresh water fill kick started or an algae outbreak controlled requires intervention with bleach.

SLAM is not a one-time shocking event. It is a process and if you are seeing green it will take several days.... but must be done following the instructions EXACTLY and consistently.

I almost forgot.... PICTURES PLEASE! We love our pictures.

 

[gillsgonewild]

You dont mention adding salt when you initially set up the SWG, did I just miss that you did?

 

[mcdrmbldr]

First, let me say thanks. I should have done that in the previous post. I appreciate your help and advice in this matter. I did read through everything that you suggested. I read the ABC's to water chemistry, the SLAM process, and looked at the test kits (pretty expensive). I also looked at and read much of Pool School.

Yes...I did add the appropriate amount of salt to the pool and it is measuring 3100 ppm which is in line with my pump.

Yes...there are clear tiny bubbles between the plates, although we are having to clean the plates daily. My pump isn't saying "high salt" or "low salt"...no warning beeping, but like I said...the plates get filled everyday, and I mean filled. I will try to post a picture.

I don't know how to add my info. to my signature, but I will investigate that now.

As for how much stabilizer I added, I cannot tell you. My husband added it, and I checked the level via the strips. I now know that they aren't the proper way to test the pool, but we would keep putting the stabilizer in until our test strip said that it was at an o.k. level. But what we were noticing was that we had to keep putting it in daily. I will ask my husband when he comes home if he knows about how much he has put in.

And yes, the pool has a green color to it, so the bleach is gone. It is a lighter green now, but still green and cloudy. I, again, will try to get some photos soon.

If the pool really isn't going to get worse, then I will wait to SLAM until I have the proper testing equipment.

I do have another question...during the SLAM process, when I vacuum my pool everyday, do you recommend that I vacuum to "WASTE" or through the filter? My manual doesn't say anything, but I guess I am worried that algae is now in the sand filter, despite backwashing. I vacuumed through the filter once when it was pretty green and also to waste multiple times. But going to waste leads to water loss and I have to put in more water (our water is very hard and filled with iron and limestone, which affects pH, etc.) and more salt. Also, during the SLAM process, I just want to clarify, I do turn off the SWG part of the pump, right? I just pump the water through the filter and turn off the other part?

Lastly, I just want to be sure...the pump only goes together one way, so I know it is set up properly, but what about the whole copper probe and titanium plate placement thing? Assuming you keep the copper probe plugged in (which we can look at later), do they have to be right in line with each other with the plates first and the copper second?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Waldog]

There's really not much you can do in the way of progress until you have a proper test kit. I do recommend the TF-100. Order it ASAP.

You're going to need to know your exact CYA level or you'll be wasting time and bleach.

My advice in the short term would be to assume you have 0 CYA, and use pool calculator to find your SLAM level based on your pool size and add that much bleach, and then add probably half that amount daily until your test arrives so you can at least keep fighting back the algae or by the time your test kit arrives you'll be dealing with a swamp.

I would head to the store and stock up on bleach. Run the pump on recirculate, and turn off the SWG for now, it won't keep up with the algae.

 

[zea3]

CYA will not register on a test until it is completely dissolved, which may take up to 7 days. How you add it to the pool matters also. We recommend putting it in a clean, white sock and placing it in the skimmer basket or hanging it in front of a return. That allows the CYA to dissolve more quickly with the water flowing over it. If you just broadcast the CYA granules into the pool they will take much longer to dissolve, and if you vacuum and backwash within that 7 days you will flush the undissolved granules out of the pool.

If your CYA is 0-20 your slam level is 10 ppm. Adding a large jug of 8% bleach each day until the test kit arrives will keep you in a holding pattern. It will keep the algae from getting worse during that time. Since you have had the copper bars connected, it would be a good idea to test the water for copper.

 

[mcdrmbldr]

OK! I got my testing kit and found that my CYA is 0-20. So, my slam level needs to be 10 ppm. I tested the chlorine and the free chlorine is 6 ppm (after adding 10 jugs of concentrated---8%---bleach from Wal-mart) and 2.5 gallons of 11% chlorine. So, it still isn't high enough...good news is that the water is blue and cloudy now, instead of pea green....but still not at slam level. We vacuumed everyday and covered the pool to try to keep the chlorine from going away from the sun. I need to get some stabilizer though. Any thoughts? And how much do I have to get? I am not using the pool calculator very well I guess. Sorry. Here are my other readings: CYA (0), TA (120), CH (175), FC (6), CC (.5), TC (6.5), and pH (7.5). I obviously have to do something about the CH too, but I don't know what, and the alkalinity is too high for a salt pool. We will add some muriatic acid to get the alkalinity down. I can't get you guys some pictures right now because our internet upload usage is gone for about 2 weeks....I am going to try to go to McDonald's to use the free wi-fi and upload some photos, but I don't know when I can do that. I will try to get pics as soon as possible of the pool and the filter set up. I also still don't know how to add my info. to my signature...can someone help with that? Thanks. Awaiting your response.

- - - Updated - - -

Never mind about the signature thing! Found it!!!

 

[mcdrmbldr]

Oh, and another question...I went to a pool supply place in town to buy a higher concentration of chlorine, and he said that I should turn the SWG back on (it has been off during the SLAM process) because it takes four days for the system to actually be able to produce the chlorine. Is he right? Should I turn it back on? Thanks.

 

[mcdrmbldr]

Oh, and another question...I went to a pool supply place in town to buy a higher concentration of chlorine, and he said that I should turn the SWG back on (it has been off during the SLAM process) because it takes four days for the system to actually be able to produce the chlorine. Is he right? Should I turn it back on? And the pool calculator says that I have to add 131 oz. of stabilizer or 327 oz. of liquid stabilizer....where do I buy liquid stabilizer? And I don't know where to buy calcium chloride to increase the CH. Any thoughts?

 

[Vince-1961]

Oh, and another question because it takes four days for the system to actually be able to produce the chlorine. Is he right? ?

He's an idiot, or more accurately, an ignorant person just trying to sound like he knows what he's talking about. (What'd he try to sell you, the most expensive item in stock?) As explained in one of the above replies, the bubbles prove that the electrolytic cell (chlorine generator) is working. It works from the first moment you turned the machine on and get saltwater flowing through it.

 

[jmbradwell]

+1 for Vince-1961's post. If your getting tiny bubbles, your getting chlorine. Not enough to get you to slam level, so that is why we tend to recommend turning it off. Why put wear on the cell and you also want to have it turned off for the OCLT at the end of your SLAM. Get the pool clear, then we can work on getting the SWG dialed in.

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

It's OK to run your SWG while you slam you just need to turn if off when you decide to do the OCLT when your water is clear and your CC level is under .5 and you think you're done. When testing overnight for loss of FC you don't want the generator fooling you.

SLAM:
Test the FC level and add enough chlorine to bring FC up to shock level (see here for correct shock level)
Test and adjust chlorine levels as frequently as practical, but not more than once per hour, and not less than twice a day. Chlorine additions should be frequent, especially at the beginning. Algae and other organic debris will consume chlorine very rapidly at first. As things progress, you will lose less chlorine each cycle and can add chlorine less frequently.
Brush and/or vacuum the entire pool once a day
Backwash or clean the filter as needed
Vacuum up debris as needed

You are done when:
CC is 0.5 or lower;
You pass an OCLT (ie overnight FC loss test shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less);
And the water is clear.
When all three are true, you are done SLAMing and can allow the FC to drift down to normal levels.

Doesn't take more than a few seconds for a SWG to start working.

Don't add any more stabilizer while you are doing the SLAM. It will only force you to add much more bleach and waste money $$$. See the table -> http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/128-chlorine-cya-chart-slam-shock
Every time you raise the CYA level you also are forced to use more bleach to increase the FC level.

Once you are done with the SLAM then you raise your CYA up to around 70 and even then you might want to do it in two steps. Easier to add a bit more stabilizer than drain water out to reduce it.
Liquid stabilizer is expensive compared to the granular : http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pool-Basics-Liquid-Stabilizer-and-Conditioner/21697390
I use the granular and get it at walmart: http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-Stabilizer-and-Conditioner/17043638
The web page says 15oz it's really a 4 lb bottle and sells for around $19. Home Depot carries the same brand too.

What test kit are you using ?? What is your CYA at presently ??

 

[timerguy]

Or, check to see if your local walmart has My Salt Pool Stabilizer. Mine does for under $20 for a 6.5 lb bottle

 

[R.J.]

You have a vinyl pool, don't worry about CH. As for TA, you can work on that after you finish the SLAM. And remember, the "M" in SLAM is for Maintain. Keep your FC at or above shock level throughout the process. You lose ground when it dips below that.

 

[mcdrmbldr]

O crud....I just added some stabilizer last night. sigh...

alright, well, I am using the TF-100 kit. Last night my CYA was 0. I could see the black dot and filled the cylinder completely. So, my shock level is 10 ppm. I am only at 6. So, I added more chlorine. A 10% solution....1 gallon. The calculator said to add 2 quarts, but I did add stabilizer...so....I am going to go test it right now. I didn't remember that I was supposed to test it twice a day, so I will start that tonight.

I know about the OCLT test, but haven't done that yet as I haven't reached SLAM level yet, and the water is still cloudy....I am starting to be able to see the bottom, but it is still cloudy. I need to get the level high enough and keep it there until the water is clear and I pass an OCLT. That might be awhile, it seems.

Anyway, I got the My Saltwater Pool Stabilizer from Wal-Mart for $20 and it was 6.5 lbs. Last night I added 57 oz. of stabilizer through a clean white sock in front of the outgoing water.

OK...so my CYA is 45 and my FC is 8 and my CC is 0.5. So, I will go to the Pool Calculator once again and see how much chlorine I have to add to try to get it up to 10...but now that my CYA is higher, the SLAM level has to be higher too, right? Ughhh...the chart doesn't say what level...what level do I have to get at now?

Wow...I hope I am doing all of this right.

Thanks for your help.

I will just leave the SWG off for now, and I won't worry about the CH. As for the TA, I will worry about that later.

 

[hyperionguy]

You don't test stabilizer at least twice a day, you test FC that often.

Did you use granular or liquid stabilizer? If you dissolved granular in your pool, you won't get a true reading the next day. It takes several days to a week to register. Quit adding it for now.

The chart indicates that if your CYA really is 45 then shock level is 18ppm.

It's fine to leave the SWG on. It doesn't hurt anything. Just turn it off the night you do OFCL. Your test will be invalid otherwise.

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

The chart indicates that if your CYA really is 45 then shock level is 18ppm.

It's fine to leave the SWG on. It doesn't hurt anything. Just turn it off the night you do OFCL. Your test will be invalid otherwise.

And you can't really test the CYA of what you added for a week !! You should just assume you have what ever target level you were going for and calculate your FC from that until next Wednesday or Thursday when you test your CYA again.

CYA - Cyanuric Acid

Cyanuric acid, often called stabilizer or conditioner, both protects FC from sunlight and lowers the effective strength of the FC (by holding some of the FC in reserve). The higher your CYA level, the more FC you need to use to get the same effect. It is important to know your CYA level so you can figure out what FC level to aim for. If you don't have a SWG or problems from extremely high amounts of sunlight, CYA is typically kept between 30 and 50. If you have a SWG or very high levels of direct sunlight, CYA is typically kept between 70 and 80.

You increase CYA by adding cyanuric acid, often sold as stabilizer or conditioner. CYA is available as a solid and as a liquid. The liquid costs a lot more, and generally isn't worth the extra expense. Solid stabilizer can take up to a week to fully register on the test, so don't retest your CYA level for a week after adding some. Solid stabilizer is best added by placing it in a sock in the skimmer basket. The pump should be run for 24 hours after adding solid stabilizer and you should avoid backwashing/cleaning the filter for a week.

In nearly all cases the best way to lower CYA is to replace water. If replacement water is extremely expensive you might want to look into a reverse osmosis water treatment.