Resurfaced pool - conflict with contractor on the pricing of additional work

[CostAccountant]

Our situation is as follows: we have a 16,000 gallon pool and we signed a contract to resurface it for $16,500. This includes emptying the pool, locate/remove all hollow and deteriorated areas (up to 30 square feet), acid wash, pressure wash, apply waterproofing, apply finish, etcetera, and treat the water, with 10 year warranty. Glas tiles were billed separately ($7,000).

It turned out that the pool floor was bad and it needed an extra day of work (crew of 6; 2 drills) to remove old plaster/marcite. This was outside of the scope of the contract, and we were billed an additional $7,750. (They came around 8am and were done around 2pm.)

I thought the additional $7,750 was rather high relative to the main contract of $16,500 which includes materials (new plaster), and chemicals to treat the water, and 2-3 weeks of work by a crew of 3 (from the day of draining the pool to applying the new plaster was more than a month, although not all days were worked, and the work also included the retiling).

However, we were forced to accept the $7,750, as we mostly prepaid the $16,500 and the contractor said they would discontinue their work if we would not pay the extra amount. We paid and the project was completed.

I have tried talking with the owner. I complained about the sales process and that the additional charge is excessive. He says the $7,750 for the extra work is 'normal', but does not want to provide details as to how this is determined. As far as I know this should be mostly wages (+overhead+profit) and some wear and tear on the drills plus some dumpster fees. The contract specifies to do 'informal mediation' before I can file for court (small claims court).

We live 10-15 minutes away from the contractor's office.

My question: Is the $7,750 indeed 'normal', or is it excessive (if it is excessive, then what would be reasonable?)

 

[Bperry]

Our situation is as follows: we have a 16,000 gallon pool and we signed a contract to resurface it for $16,500. This includes emptying the pool, locate/remove all hollow and deteriorated areas (up to 30 square feet), acid wash, pressure wash, apply waterproofing, apply finish, etcetera, and treat the water, with 10 year warranty. Glas tiles were billed separately ($7,000).

It turned out that the pool floor was bad and it needed an extra day of work (crew of 6; 2 drills) to remove old plaster/marcite. This was outside of the scope of the contract, and we were billed an additional $7,750. (They came around 8am and were done around 2pm.)

I thought the additional $7,750 was rather high relative to the main contract of $16,500 which includes materials (new plaster), and chemicals to treat the water, and 2-3 weeks of work by a crew of 3 (from the day of draining the pool to applying the new plaster was more than a month, although not all days were worked, and the work also included the retiling).

However, we were forced to accept the $7,750, as we mostly prepaid the $16,500 and the contractor said they would discontinue their work if we would not pay the extra amount. We paid and the project was completed.

I have tried talking with the owner. I complained about the sales process and that the additional charge is excessive. He says the $7,750 for the extra work is 'normal', but does not want to provide details as to how this is determined. As far as I know this should be mostly wages (+overhead+profit) and some wear and tear on the drills plus some dumpster fees. The contract specifies to do 'informal mediation' before I can file for court (small claims court).

We live 10-15 minutes away from the contractor's office.

My question: Is the $7,750 indeed 'normal', or is it excessive (if it is excessive, then what would be reasonable?)

On one of the resurface contract bids for my pool they listed that the estimate was based on X amount of square footage plaster removal and any extra removal was $$ per square foot and the cost was crazy expensive. This was one reason I chose to chip all of it out myself. Its terribly hard work and messy. 6 guys working for 6 hours is $215/man hour. It does seems a bit pricy but they should have warned you about that.

Was there any langauge in the bill about it?

 

[CostAccountant]

We were told that it was possible that there would be additional cost for it, but nothing was specified in terms of costs. The costs are very steep compared to the job we contracted to do. It feels like they are taking advantage of the situation. When we had this conversation about the costs the sales person said that 'special, expensive equipment' was needed that was driving the cost up. But, other than the two drills I did not see any 'special equipment'.

 

[Bperry]

We were told that it was possible that there would be additional cost for it, but nothing was specified in terms of costs. The costs are very steep compared to the job we contracted to do. It feels like they are taking advantage of the situation. When we had this conversation about the costs the sales person said that 'special, expensive equipment' was needed that was driving the cost up. But, other than the two drills I did not see any 'special equipment'.

Not sure what you can do in that case. Do you have any money left to leverage with? How much did they chip out and did they install staples to fix any cracks in the shell?

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Was the $7,750 only for removal/disposing of the plaster on the floor?

 

[CostAccountant]

Not sure what you can do in that case. Do you have any money left to leverage with? How much did they chip out and did they install staples to fix any cracks in the shell?

There was a payment plan so that we essentially paid the full amount before they finished it. About the floor: it had 'weak spots', and they basically drilled it all out (to the concrete), and made 'grooves' so to increase the surface level (so that the new plaster would stick better). In terms of work done it was high quality.

 

[CostAccountant]

Was the $7,750 only for removal/disposing of the plaster on the floor?

Indeed: $7,750 for one day of work for a crew of 6. The main contract allowed for 30 square feet of 'hollow'/weak areas to be drilled out, so part of it was already done. So, yes, drilling the remainder out and hauling it away for $7,750.

 

[Bperry]

There was a payment plan so that we essentially paid the full amount before they finished it. About the floor: it had 'weak spots', and they basically drilled it all out (to the concrete), and made 'grooves' so to increase the surface level (so that the new plaster would stick better). In terms of work done it was high quality.

Any more info about the “grooves” would be useful. Never heard of that, but they do cut grooves into the concrete to install staples or other material to stabilize cracks.

 

[CostAccountant]

Any more info about the “grooves” would be useful. Never heard of that, but they do cut grooves into the concrete to install staples or other material to stabilize cracks.

I think the main concern was the 'old' plaster breaking away in a couple of years time if they were to replaster over it. I don't think they stapled anything into the concrete. It is possible they did, I just didn't see it, and it wasn't mentioned as something they did.

 

[Bperry]

I think the main concern was the 'old' plaster breaking away in a couple of years time if they were to replaster over it. I don't think they stapled anything into the concrete. It is possible they did, I just didn't see it, and it wasn't mentioned as something they did.

The old plaster breaking away is a real concern and why it can be bad to put new plaster over old plaster. Im just wondering what the grooves you referred to are.

 

[CostAccountant]

The old plaster breaking away is a real concern and why it can be bad to put new plaster over old plaster. Im just wondering what the grooves you referred to are.

Ok, it could be just 'sales talk' to justify the price. The owner was also arguing that these grooves would add 6-7 bags of plaster, which I found unlikely.

 

[Bperry]

Ok, it could be just 'sales talk' to justify the price. The owner was also arguing that these grooves would add 6-7 bags of plaster, which I found unlikely.

Did they remove all the old plaster and add grooves to the gunite shell? Or did they just groove the old plaster.

 

[CostAccountant]

Did they remove all the old plaster and add grooves to the gunite shell? Or did they just groove the old plaster.

Remove the old plaster, and add groves to the shell

 

[Bperry]

Remove the old plaster, and add groves to the shell

I guess it doesnt harm anything but I’d be skeptical of just how much benefit it provides. The bags of plaster are not that expensive. Maybe $50 each.

 

[CostAccountant]

I guess it doesnt harm anything but I’d be skeptical of just how much benefit it provides. The bags of plaster are not that expensive. Maybe $50 each.

Yeah, my impression is that the contractor knew what he was doing. My concern is about the pricing of the extra work. Since we were cornered/blackmailed into accepting it.

 

[JamesW]

The contract specifies to do 'informal mediation' before I can file for court (small claims court).

Start the mediation process or at least contact the mediator to see if they are independent with no conflict of interest.

Is it binding arbitration?

Is the mediator a certified mediator/arbitrator?

What is the cost for the mediation?

It turned out that the pool floor was bad and it needed an extra day of work (crew of 6; 2 drills) to remove old plaster/marcite.

They should have known the condition, so it seems like bad faith to notify you like they did.

In any case, they should have given you all possible "Extras" that might happen so that you would know ahead of time and make an informed decision.

They should have told you that there was a possibility of X, Y and Z being possibly required but there is no way to tell until they get to a certain point.

They should inform you of the probability of the extras as well as the costs so that you could negotiate on fair terms.

 

[CostAccountant]

Start the mediation process or at least contact the mediator to see if they are independent with no conflict of interest.

Is it binding arbitration?

Is the mediator a certified mediator/arbitrator?

What is the cost for the mediation?

They should have known the condition, so it seems like bad faith to notify you like they did.

In any case, they should have given you all possible "Extras" that might happen so that you would know ahead of time and make an informed decision.

They should have told you that there was a possibility of X, Y and Z being possibly required but there is no way to tell until they get to a certain point.

They should inform you of the probability of the extras as well as the costs so that you could negotiate on fair terms.

Thank you - the contract has the following clause on mediation:

"Any claim arising out of or related to this contract (...). shall be subject to informal mediation as a condition precedent to the institution of legal proceedings. Requests for mediation shall be served in writing on the other party to the contract. Mediation shall proceed within 30 days from the date of the request for informal mediation."

It sounds like it will not be binding, otherwise it is not very informative.

In terms of information: we were told that it was possible that extra work could be needed, once the pool was empty. No mention was made of costs/rates, or fees or how any of these additional costs would be determined.

 

[JamesW]

In terms of information: we were told that it was possible that extra work would be needed, once the pool was empty. No mention was made of costs/rates, or fees or how any of these additional costs would be determined.

They should have told you the costs and you should have asked.

Maybe check into the mediation to see what is involved, how much it will cost, who has to pay, how long it takes, what the process is etc.

How much would you feel is fair for the extra work?

Maybe offer the amount you feel is fair.

I would think maybe about $4,700.00 at the high end, but that is working with limited information about exactly what was done.

 

[CostAccountant]

They should have told you the costs and you should have asked.

Maybe check into the mediation to see what is involved, how much it will cost, who has to pay, how long it takes, what the process is etc.

How much would you feel is fair for the extra work?

Maybe offer the amount you feel is fair.

I would think maybe about $4,700.00 at the high end, but that is working with limited information about exactly what was done.

Thanks - yes, lesson learned. There were some other red flags that I ignored (like we were asked to sign the contract before deciding on tiles designs, giving the sales guy freedom in penciling in the costs of these tiles).

In any case, based on the main contract ($16,500), and the number of days worked it looks like the main crew of 3 were working for $1,000 per day (labor costs only). One was very experienced (and high quality), and the other 2 were young assistants. The extra work was done by a crew of 6 (same regular 3 plus 3 other ones). So in that sense a crew of 6 should cost $2,000. Ignoring scheduling, and other difficulties, depreciation on drills and dumpster fees, which should all be relatively low compared to labor costs.

 

[JamesW]

Maybe offer $3,875.00 and see what they do.

Maybe check into the mediation/arbitration to see if that has any value.

What is involved?

How much it will cost?

Who has to pay?

How long does it take?

Who is the mediator?

Are they impartial, unbiased and without any conflicts of interest?

Are they a certified professional company?

What happens if they cannot reach a settlement?

Is anything binding?