The TA of your fill water has nothing to do with whether a Bicarb Start-up is good to do. An acid start-up or a pH neutral start-up both maintain negative CSI during start-up and the traditional start-up maintains a near zero CSI and all three create plaster dust to varying degrees which means that the calcium carbonate in plaster is dissolving into the pool. With a bicarb start-up the calcium hydroxide produced from curing is converted to calcium carbonate IN-PLACE in the plaster forming a sealed plaster surface without generating plaster dust. It results in a smooth hard plaster surface that should be stronger and last longer.
Rental Pool doesn't register chlorine
- Thread starter Rental Pool
- Start date
So you're saying it should be done after all re-plastering jobs, no matter what the chemical makeup of the water? The link mentioned CH, TA and pH for determining how much Bicarb to use, so I guess I need the numbers anyway, so I know how much Bicarb to use. Are there other ways of doing this that don't require a 55 gallon barrel... especially if little bicarb needs to be used? I'd prefer not remanufacturing a barrel.
Yes, the bicarb start-up is for all plaster jobs, new or replaster. It's another startup technique. See Start-up Chemistry for Plaster Pools. The acid startup is the worst so if you don't have a bicarb startup then at least have it be a traditional startup or worst-case a pH-neutral startup, but not an acid startup if you can avoid it.
For the bicarb startup, you need to add water to the pool with the appropriately higher CH and TA level. The barrel is just a way of doing that on the fly as water gets added to the pool where the barrel allows you to add the CH and TA. onBalance is the expert on the method and might have some other ideas. You could try balancing the pool as it fills up and do so in the pool water itself but it's better to premix the extra CH and TA so that it doesn't get added to the pool in one place. The barrel lets you do that. You could probably use a large garbage can instead (some are 50 gallons -- I just got one myself for another purpose).
For the bicarb startup, you need to add water to the pool with the appropriately higher CH and TA level. The barrel is just a way of doing that on the fly as water gets added to the pool where the barrel allows you to add the CH and TA. onBalance is the expert on the method and might have some other ideas. You could try balancing the pool as it fills up and do so in the pool water itself but it's better to premix the extra CH and TA so that it doesn't get added to the pool in one place. The barrel lets you do that. You could probably use a large garbage can instead (some are 50 gallons -- I just got one myself for another purpose).
Well, that makes sense - the opinions of the tenants, who are living with the pool on a day to day basis, are another parameter you can't ignore. It's certainly a more complex situation than the typical homeowner managing his/her backyard pool. Hope things continue to go well, and that you will keep us updated!
Sorry, didn't even think that they were the ones doing the adding.. (duh on my part!) Your idea is probably best. You might even think about getting 12.5 eventually. Could always rebottle it with the prescribed amount all ready to go.
I hope things continue to go well, also, though choosing a plastering company is a scary proposition. I'll continue to keep you posted.
Based on what I've read, 12.5% wouldn't stay 12.5% for long, so I think it would be easier to just pick up a couple of 2-packs pf 10% from Lowes every week. The chlorine is stored in the garage.
Based on what I've read, 12.5% wouldn't stay 12.5% for long, so I think it would be easier to just pick up a couple of 2-packs pf 10% from Lowes every week. The chlorine is stored in the garage.
See the table in this post. If kept outside in the shade, your current daytime highs are 103ºF and the nighttime lows are 65ºF so the weighted average to use for the table is 94ºF so using the 95ºF column shows 12.5% degrading to 10.4% in one week and to 7.5% in one month. 8.25% bleach would degrade to 7.6% in one week and to 6.3% in one month.
So, according to your chart, the higher percentage we start with, the faster it drops off, yet it never drops below something that started out at a lower percentage. Does that mean it would usually be better to buy the highest percentage available? I can get 2 gallons of 10% for $6.73 (including tax), while 2 gallons of 12 1/2% would cost me $12.04 (including tax) or 4 gallons of 12 1/2% would cost me $19.40 (including tax). I will only buy enough at one time for 1-2 weeks. Which is the better deal? It appears to me the 10% is still the best deal.
No, it doesn't stop dropping and can certainly drop lower than something starting out at a lower percentage. After 6 months at 90ºF the 12.5% drops to 4.41% so I must be missing your point except that you say you will be using it within 1-2 weeks.
What this means is that if you are going to be getting higher percentage product you need to use it reasonably quickly if the temperatures are high. As for whether it's a better deal, you need to compute its price on the basis of it's weighted average concentration over the timeframe you will be using it. The main reason people get the higher percentage is that it is less weight to carry and sometimes it's less expensive per FC though sometimes it's not. In my case, I also get it 12.5% from my local pool store because they reuse the bottles which is better for the environment than recycling them.
In your case your 10% for $6.73 is a far better deal than the 4 gallons of 12.5% for $19.40 which would be equivalent to 2 gallons of 10% for $7.76. So you should get the 10% not only because it's less expensive per FC but it will also last longer. The only downside with it is that you have to buy physically more quantity of it so more weight to carry.
What this means is that if you are going to be getting higher percentage product you need to use it reasonably quickly if the temperatures are high. As for whether it's a better deal, you need to compute its price on the basis of it's weighted average concentration over the timeframe you will be using it. The main reason people get the higher percentage is that it is less weight to carry and sometimes it's less expensive per FC though sometimes it's not. In my case, I also get it 12.5% from my local pool store because they reuse the bottles which is better for the environment than recycling them.
In your case your 10% for $6.73 is a far better deal than the 4 gallons of 12.5% for $19.40 which would be equivalent to 2 gallons of 10% for $7.76. So you should get the 10% not only because it's less expensive per FC but it will also last longer. The only downside with it is that you have to buy physically more quantity of it so more weight to carry.
My reason for assuming the higher percentage approaches but never drops below the lower percentage is that even at 6 months, the 12 1/2% remains higher than the 8 1/2%. It sounds like you are saying the 12 1/2% will eventually drop below the 8 1/4%. I guess I was thinking of astronomy. When considering escape speed from a black hole, the curve asymptotically approaches both axes yet never reaches either one. Maybe I was picturing this pool as a black hole... something like the definition of a boat. 'A boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money.'
Oh I see where you were going. Well yes, if you start out higher than it never "catches up" to something that is lower (with both exposed to the same temperature). The reason is that the loss rate is proportional to the CURRENT concentration, not the starting concentration. So when the 12.5% gets to being 8.25% it will degrade from that point forward just as if it were 8.25% starting out at that point in time.
Just like the escape speed from a black hole.
Life is filled with challenges. Hopefully we find pleasure in them, feel a sense of accomplishment and are wise enough to appreciate the fact that we are surrounded by good friends and colleagues to share it with. Forums are filled with friends we never even knew we had. Thank you.
Life is filled with challenges. Hopefully we find pleasure in them, feel a sense of accomplishment and are wise enough to appreciate the fact that we are surrounded by good friends and colleagues to share it with. Forums are filled with friends we never even knew we had. Thank you.
Here are the numbers for this week (my tenants admitted they weren't as conscientious about adding bleach this past week):
FC = 3.2
CC = 0.2
pH = 7.4
TA = 195
I'm getting bids on the re-plastering, but running into a lot of scare tactics. I'll start a thread on re-plastering once all the bids are in. One guy said there was no way I could have a SWG, as I have copper pipe underground, yet this is what I read on this site:
"As long as you keep the PH at 7.2 or higher at all times, the copper pipes will be fine with SWG levels of salt. Copper starts to have issues around 6000 ppm of salt, while modern SWGs tend to use salt levels around 3000 or 3500."
I'm more likely to believe what I read here than that which comes from someone giving me a sales pitch.
I forgot to add my tap numbers for the bicarb startup. It actually looks like no bicarb is needed, as my TA + CH is over 500, but I'd like your feedback.
Tap water:
pH = 7.3
TA = 290
CH = 330
FC = 3.2
CC = 0.2
pH = 7.4
TA = 195
I'm getting bids on the re-plastering, but running into a lot of scare tactics. I'll start a thread on re-plastering once all the bids are in. One guy said there was no way I could have a SWG, as I have copper pipe underground, yet this is what I read on this site:
"As long as you keep the PH at 7.2 or higher at all times, the copper pipes will be fine with SWG levels of salt. Copper starts to have issues around 6000 ppm of salt, while modern SWGs tend to use salt levels around 3000 or 3500."
I'm more likely to believe what I read here than that which comes from someone giving me a sales pitch.
I forgot to add my tap numbers for the bicarb startup. It actually looks like no bicarb is needed, as my TA + CH is over 500, but I'd like your feedback.
Tap water:
pH = 7.3
TA = 290
CH = 330
While it is true that pH is a bigger determinant of metal corrosion, if you do have copper pipes underground, that's not like a gas heat exchanger one can replace if corrosion occurs. So he does have a point. 3000 ppm most certainly corrodes faster than 1500 ppm. Normally the risk is low but copper pipes underground is certainly a factor to consider.
You are correct that with your tap water you are in good shape for a bicarb startup without CH or TA adjustment. You're lucky since no barrels may be needed for the mixing/adjustment. You'll be adding acid to keep the pH down and that may lower the TA some, but for filling it looks good. Hopefully onBalance can chime in to confirm.
You are correct that with your tap water you are in good shape for a bicarb startup without CH or TA adjustment. You're lucky since no barrels may be needed for the mixing/adjustment. You'll be adding acid to keep the pH down and that may lower the TA some, but for filling it looks good. Hopefully onBalance can chime in to confirm.
So the question is... do I spend the extra money on a SWG or rely on tenants to put in liquid chlorine? They are willing to double up when they miss a day. What would you do, if you had to rely on others to handle the chlorine? I have 1 1/2" copper pipes from the skimmer to the main drain and from where the filter pipes enter the ground to the pool returns.
I did have to replace the leaking copper pipes above ground when I was using too many pucks to raise the chlorine level, and it ended up lowering the pH significantly. There may be damage to the underground pipes, also, but I don't see significant water loss (beyond evaporation). I did use a stop leak in the pipes, just in case there were any pin holes.
I did have to replace the leaking copper pipes above ground when I was using too many pucks to raise the chlorine level, and it ended up lowering the pH significantly. There may be damage to the underground pipes, also, but I don't see significant water loss (beyond evaporation). I did use a stop leak in the pipes, just in case there were any pin holes.
Well if you go with an SWG you can electrically connect a zinc sacrificial anode to the bonding wire and make sure that bonding wire is electrically connected to the copper piping. Then bury the zinc sacrificial anode in moist soil and check on it annually to make sure it's not depleted and replace it if it is. That should help reduce corrosion rates for any metal in contact with water (assuming all such metal is connected to the bonding wire). The SWG will certainly help maintain the pool without relying on tenants to add chlorine regularly.
It's a tough call not only with the copper pipes but given the fact that they may already have corroded somewhat from the low pH conditions.
Your other automation alternative would be to use a tank of chlorine with a peristaltic pump (or The Liquidator, but that can have less capacity and be more finicky), but someone would have to get chlorinating liquid or bleach and refill the tank every some number of weeks depending on the size of the tank.
It's a tough call not only with the copper pipes but given the fact that they may already have corroded somewhat from the low pH conditions.
Your other automation alternative would be to use a tank of chlorine with a peristaltic pump (or The Liquidator, but that can have less capacity and be more finicky), but someone would have to get chlorinating liquid or bleach and refill the tank every some number of weeks depending on the size of the tank.
Since the pool filter sits in the sun of Southern California, I'd have no interest in filling chlorine every few weeks. I'd be filling it once a week. Would you see this as a better alternative to SWG? Also, there is no moist soil on this property. For me to have the zinc rod, I'd have to have two, one by the skimmer and one by the filter. I do have a zinc ball sitting in the leaf catcher of the filter and one attached to the Hayward leaf catcher at the skimmer (connected to The Pool Cleaner).
Also, regarding The Pool Cleaner, My steering assembly shaft (#8 on the company's schematic Dropbox - The Pool Cleaner.jpg) is worn, so slips. All I can find is the entire assembly for sale. Do you know of anyone who just sells the shaft?
Also, regarding The Pool Cleaner, My steering assembly shaft (#8 on the company's schematic Dropbox - The Pool Cleaner.jpg) is worn, so slips. All I can find is the entire assembly for sale. Do you know of anyone who just sells the shaft?
If you are able to fill a container with chlorinating liquid or bleach once a week then that's more manual labor than an SWG but would work just fine and not have the corrosion risk. So for that you can use a peristaltic pump with a tank or you can use The Liquidator. The peristaltic pump costs more but would be more reliable and trouble-free.
Zinc balls just sitting in a catcher won't do anything. To protect metal you have to electrically connect the zinc to it. Sitting in a plastic basket does nothing except slowly have the zinc corrode into the water as zinc ions.
I don't know about The Pool Cleaner parts. Perhaps someone else knows if you can get just the steering assembly shaft.
Zinc balls just sitting in a catcher won't do anything. To protect metal you have to electrically connect the zinc to it. Sitting in a plastic basket does nothing except slowly have the zinc corrode into the water as zinc ions.
I don't know about The Pool Cleaner parts. Perhaps someone else knows if you can get just the steering assembly shaft.
It sounds like the peristaltic pumps are much more cost effective than SWGs, and would reduce the concern of copper pipe corrosion. Are you talking about something like the ROLA-CHEM LIQUID POOL CHEMICAL FEEDER - RC-25/53 or RC103? The RC103 is larger, but $22 less expensive http://www.poolcenter.com/p/rola-chem-liquid-chlorine-pumps. What type of a container would you recommend to hold the chlorine, and how would you recommend protecting it from the heat of the sun? Would you recommend adding a couple of gallons of fresh chlorine every week (after the replaster) or storing more in this unit? I don't mind maintenance, as long as it can be done no more than once a week. I had one re-plasterer promote Del ozone generators, but this site seems to say they aren't effective.
Would it be worthwhile for me to copper wire the zinc balls to the copper pipes, even though the soil isn't moist? Any other suggestions regarding using zinc to protect copper?
Would it be worthwhile for me to copper wire the zinc balls to the copper pipes, even though the soil isn't moist? Any other suggestions regarding using zinc to protect copper?