Rehabilitating older in-ground pool

[Scubasteve65]

Greetings, I have a 15x25(ish) in-ground plaster pool at about 12K. Needs major updating. First installed in 1975. Long Island NY.
Replacing two floor inlets (black poly pipe that leaks under the brick and flagstone deck) as well as eliminating the main drain for the same reason.
in need of new pump possibly (I rebuilt the Superpump .75 hp last season). Hayward sand filter ok. Sta-rite NG maxi therm is 20? years old. Hayward Goldline SWG need new t-cell and a few other components. Stainless steel skimmer needs replacement as well. It's a laundry list for sure.
Recommendations needed and Questions galore.
I'm eliminating the main drain as i can't tunnel under the pool so I will put in 2 new skimmers to replace the one old skimmer. I familiar with Hayward but if anyone has a better suggestion please let me know. I'm thinking 2" lines with lower equalizer ports. I know that's additional drilling but it's a safety net if the water level drops, yes?
What heater would you suggest? I think I should stay with NG and not heat pump given my location. Thoughts? What brand? Electric rates are crazy high in the area.
I can stay with my old reliable superpump but don't mind upgrading to a VS. What brand? What HP?
I have an older Hayward Goldline SWG that needs a new t-cell. should I just buy a newer model?
I know I will have a host of other questions coming up, but any input on the aforementioned is greatly appreciated.

 

[Dirk]

I think the first thing to determine is if you might ever upgrade to automation. Not necessarily this go-round, but ever. The automation controller, the VS pump and the SWG should all be of the same brand, for best features. And of course the pump and SWG would need to be compatible with all the automation goodness the controller can make available.

If automation will never be added, then you're much freer to mix and match brands and models. But if it's a possibility, you want to buy what you're going to at this point with the eventual total system in mind.

Other random thoughts for ya:

Heaters can pretty much work with any controller. Same for filters.

I deleted my main drains and love it. Don't miss them at all, and the pool looks way nicer without them. I also circumvent the need for an equalizer pipe by using an auto-leveler. In addition to the pump safeguard it provides, I never think twice about my pool being too full or too empty. It just takes care of itself. So that's a possible alternative to the equalizers you're considering. By the way, you don't need two of those. One skimmer will do. The other can have a float valve that just closes off that skimmer's suction port if the water drops. We'll double-check that idea with one of our builder experts, before you make that call.

If you're considering a VS pump, you don't have to think about HP. They really should be called variable horsepower, not variable speed. You dial in the flow you need, you don't have to think about RPM or HP.

I can't advise on the heater. I think Raypac is the brand that a lot of TFPers really like. Raypak Pool & Spa, Residential and Commercial Hydronic Products

I don't know anything about Goldline either. I know that if the controller/power supply is working, replacing just the cell is a whole lot cheaper than starting from scratch.

Hayward is one of the big three. I'm all about Pentair, which is one of TFP's most trusted brands. But a lot of folks here have Hayward. Let's see what they say about it.

That'll give you something to think about until the next guy comes along...

Oh, and welcome to TFP! Stick around after you finish the remodel and we'll help you maintain the water. TFP has that down.

 

[wireform]

What Dirk said,
Personally I don't think you need automation as you have a few short months of swimming weather and nothing but a pool. I agree to do away with the main drain as lots of new builds don't even have them anymore and it's simply not needed. I'm not for the auto leveler which I think is auto fill because it's a false reading thinking all is perfect when indeed you can have a massive leak and never know till your water bill shows up and then go crazy, besides you can loose control on the chem levels easily as the new water replaces the lost water so for me I say no. The SWCG can be up and running with just a new cell but before you do we would need info from the current cell such as what you have now and what revision board is in there. The pump should be VS high hp as it's more efficient running at lower rpms. As for the heater Raypak seems to be the pick of choice, get a larger one then what just fits the pool so you'll have more degrees an hour for more rapid heating. Comes in handy when unexpected guest show up.

 

[Dirk]

I'm not for the auto leveler which I think is auto fill because it's a false reading thinking all is perfect when indeed you can have a massive leak and never know till your water bill shows up

This is the very common argument against auto-fill, which is half of an auto-leveler system. The other half is overflow control. wireworm is right, in that if you ignore the system, and develop a leak in the pool, the auto-filler will happily chug away, refilling the lost water indefinitely. It's actually worse than that, because if the auto-fill valve fails, and begins pumping water, the overflow control will happily drain it away. Both scenarios could really give you some sticker shock when the water bill shows up.

But here's my counter argument. Lots of pool equipment can fail and cost you thousands of dollars. The expense of some of those failures can be avoided with your own due diligence, or exacerbated by completely ignoring your pool equipment. A pool is like a pet. You may not want to play with it everyday, but you still have to take care of it!

So, which sounds like more trouble:
- dragging a hose out to your pool every day in the summer, to replace what evaporated, and then hoping you remember to turn it off before you overflow the pool,
or
- just walking by the auto-leveler once every day or two to give it a quick peek or a listen to see if it's running when it shouldn't be?

Or which sounds like more trouble:
- getting up in the middle of the night while it's pouring rain and slogging out to the pool equipment pad to turn on the pump to remove the excess water,
or
- just walking by the auto-leveler once every day or two to give it a quick peek or a listen to see if it's working like it should?

Are the vast majority of pools springing leaks, and regularly? So much so that auto-leveling is such a huge risk?! I hear the argument against auto-leveling every once is while. Just makes no real-world sense to me to deny such a handy convenience on the very slim chance that maybe, just maybe, just once, your pool might spring a leak.

Or worried about the valve getting stuck? Better get rid of those pesky toilets in your house. The auto-filler I have uses the same filling valve found in a toilet tank.

I check my auto-leveling system every time I empty the skimmer basket. it takes 5 seconds. I've used the system for over six years. The valve did fail once, because of some plumbing I was doing. I caught it leaking a few days later, and fixed it quickly. I don't think it impacted my water bill by any noticeable amount. In the meantime, the system has saved me 1000s of man hours by never having to fill or drain my pool, not once, day or night, rain or shine, not in six years. You can do the math on that... if works for me...

Sorry, more than you ever wanted to know about auto-leveling systems...

 

[Scubasteve65]

I looked into the Pentair Automatic Pool Filler T40-F. Seems pretty straight forward. It shows an equalizer type wall penetration, albeit small, about 13+ inches below the water line. Post season I assume you blow out the line, plug the port from inside the pool, vacuum out the pot and dump in some antifreeze.
Question - this would be done to avoid having to drill out equalizer lines under the skimmer as I should never again have the water level drop below my skimmer? (Remember, no main drain). Along with not having to jump up in the middle of the night remembering I left the hose running in the pool.
Next question has to do with piping - I've read flex pvc is subject to termite damage. True or false? I can run rigid pipe just the same. Also, at work I have some flex pvc that is really heavy duty, a true schedule 40. Not like the stuff you see on rolls at a pool supply. You could drive a car over this stuff. Anyone know where to source it? In a 15x25 roughly 12K volume, how many inlets would you install? and should I pipe it all with 2 inch?

 

[Dirk]

I looked into the Pentair Automatic Pool Filler T40-F. Seems pretty straight forward. It shows an equalizer type wall penetration, albeit small, about 13+ inches below the water line. Post season I assume you blow out the line, plug the port from inside the pool, vacuum out the pot and dump in some antifreeze.
Question - this would be done to avoid having to drill out equalizer lines under the skimmer as I should never again have the water level drop below my skimmer? (Remember, no main drain). Along with not having to jump up in the middle of the night remembering I left the hose running in the pool.

Yes, equalizer tube. That's what I like best about this unit. For a couple reasons. The overflow is not a grate in your pool tile, which could be subject to waves. The equalizer works to "even out" the true level before water leaves the pool. The other reason is a bit obscure, but important (to me). Chemical accumulation is a challenge with any pool. Calcium (coming in with the fill water) and salt (byproduct of chlorine, acid and humans) tend to build up in a pool. They don't evaporate. They can only be removed and controlled by water exchange. Rain is the cheapest, easiest source for that. But rain water is fresh water and it floats on the pool surface for a while. An overflow grate in the tile will siphon off some portion of that pure water goodness, leaving all the salt and calcium in place. But an equalizer pipe that separates the pool from the overflow port will siphon off water from below the surface. The fresh rain water will force calcium- and salt-rich pool water out of the pool from below, and subsequent pumping will mix in the fresh water with the rest, retaining most of the goodness. It is in this way that I so far have not had to replace water in my pool due to accumulation. In fact, I generally have to add about a bag of salt a year. I don't have any actual proof how much the equalizer pipe contributes to this exchange theory, but I like to think it does!

Which brings me to why I think my PoolMiser.com auto-leveler has one up on Pentair's model. The PoolMiser's overflow is not a fixed port in the side of the tank like Pentair's, but rather a port in the bottom of the tank. A 1" PVC pipe friction-fits into that port, and extends upward to above the normal water level. Excess water dumps into the pipe and out the overflow port. I've used that setup in a couple ways. If I need to remove some water, I can just pull the pipe out. That'll take down about a foot of water (or until I put the pipe back in). I do that sometimes in advance of a big storm, so that I can then collect extra rain water. This MO for sure replaces calcium-&-salt-rich pool water with fresh rain water. And I used it once when I needed to work on my tile. More importantly, the length of the pipe can be adjusted, to determine the exact point where overflow occurs, higher or lower than the default level. Things you can't do with the Pentair model. The filler valve is the same for both brands.

I don't know how to winterize, but your explanation sounds right. My equalizer tube ends with a standard pool eyeball return fitting. The installer said he used that so it looked the same as the other returns. Whatever. More importantly, that fitting uses the standard 1.5" thread, so that could be plugged with a threaded plug as needed. So that's the way to go.

Yes, the auto-filler would replace the need to run an equalizer tube from skimmer to pool. The auto-filler would not allow the water level to drop below the skimmer's intake. You'll never again have to drag out a hose to fill the pool, and you'll never have to worry about forgetting to turn off that same hose! And yes, the overflow part of an auto-leveler means you never have to go out in the rain, day or night, to pump out storm water! I don't understand why any pool would be built without an auto-leveling system.

Next question has to do with piping - I've read flex pvc is subject to termite damage. True or false? I can run rigid pipe just the same. Also, at work I have some flex pvc that is really heavy duty, a true schedule 40. Not like the stuff you see on rolls at a pool supply. You could drive a car over this stuff. Anyone know where to source it? In a 15x25 roughly 12K volume, how many inlets would you install? and should I pipe it all with 2 inch?

I think @ajw22 might have some insight about that.

 

[JoseAlgete]

I'm also in the process of rehabilitating a 1975 pool. I'm rebuilding everything except the concrete walls and floor. Regarding the main drain, I installed a new tube (high density poliethilene 40 mm if I recall correctly) inside the old steel tube and it works prefectly. I do have a short (about 2.5 m) and straight section only, so inserting the tube was easy. In the pool side, finished with a brass fitting and grout in the drain to avoid any leaks.