Really need advice re stains

[NewPoolGirlTX]

I had my plaster re-done last January. I picked a terrible contractor who left me with multiple unfinished problems, leading me to question the quality of everything that was done. After the plaster was in place he never came to look at it or anything so I have no idea if it was done correctly and well. I still trusted him at that point.

I had a bunch of staining, due to an old heater (because said pool guy kept telling me the heater would be in "next week" and I didn't realize that metals from the old heater could be staining the new plaster). I did a no drain AA treatment after the new heater went in and it seemed to really get rid of those stains.

Now, stains have slowly come back. They look like dirt stains to me ( so did the ones I thought were due to the old heater). It started with a few baseball sized dirty looking spots and slowly more and more have come, some darker than others. I let them go too long as I thought the contractor was still going to be helping me solve all these issues.

I can post numbers later but I lowered the chlorine to under 3 to do the Jack's stain ID kit (it's probably zero by now). I haven't started raising it yet because if I need to do some kind of protocol this weekend, I wasn't sure what level it needs to be at.

I did the Jack's stain ID kit 3 times. None of them seemed to significantly lift the stains. the #2 , copper and scale is probably closest to lifting at all but even some of the lighter stains did not disappear with it or significantly lighten them.

I have hard water so scale is definitely a concern. I don't have much white scale at the waterline--I get it in one particular spot that I clean off periodically) I have had the pool water tested as well as the fill water and supposedly there is no copper (I know Leslie's isn't the most reliable but I don't know how else to test for copper reliably).

I'm ready to pull my hair out.
--I am not confident the plaster was done well in the first place and who knows if I messed it up with the AA treatment.
--water here is expensive, and I hate to waste it, but would drain it to do whatever needs to be done if I'm sure it'll work
--Do I try Jack's stain #2 protocol based on a the ambiguous id results? Will it hurt the plaster?
--Do I just lower the pH to 6.8 and hope for the best? (PS what is the best way to test pH for that level?)
--Do I just live with a very expensive dirty looking pool forever, and risk it getting worse and worse?
--Do I hire a new contractor and pay thru the nose again to get the plaster redone but would that even fix it?

I have some logs on Pool Math, but don't log every time, the app wasn't letting me for awhile. But I have been careful with my chemicals all along. I don't know who I can even trust anymore to help me in real life so you guys are my only hope.

I can't tell you how much I wish I had just filled the Dang thing in with dirt last year. I've gotten to where I hate it and the amount of time, effort and money I have put into it to have it look like it does. I thought if I was careful with the chemicals, it would look good for a couple years at the least.

Thank you for any empathy, advice, and for reading my plight.
~Marci

 

[Texas Splash]

Marci, for now, I wouldn't leave the FC close to zero. It's so dang hot that you'll get algae right away if it hasn't started already. Once you get algae, you'll be forced to do a SLAM Process before doing any treatment for metals. There are 3 simple tests you can do at home along with the ID Kit you purchased and they are:
1 - Sprinkle some cal-hypo on a stain (organic)
2 - Rub a Vitamin C tablet on a stain (iron)
3 - Rub some dry acid (i.e. pH Downs) on a stain (copper)

Because of the old heater fiasco, copper would be a concern, but let's see if any of your tests confirm anything. If your pH, TA, and CH have gotten out of control, then any of those items above could also be trapped under some scale making it more difficult to treat. Of course there is the concern about the plaster job itself.

But at this point, I wouldn't just do a no-drain treatment or anything like that as you could do more damage to your plaster than it's worth. Give those DIY tests a shot and let us know if you have any new results.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Ok, I ran all the numbers
as suspected FC was 0
TA dropped sometime in the last 2 weeks from 50->40
CYA 60

I cannot get a CH score.

I tried the adding 5 drops first,
I tried diluting the sample
I tried diluting and adding 5 drops first
it always turns purple.

Yes, my chemicals are new, I just replaced them because of this very problem.

It always turns purple. So I have a metal problem of some kind? How do I diagnose? I just did a metal magic treatment about 2 weeks ago.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Marci, for now, I wouldn't leave the FC close to zero. It's so dang hot that you'll get algae right away if it hasn't started already. Once you get algae, you'll be forced to do a SLAM Process before doing any treatment for metals. There are 3 simple tests you can do at home along with the ID Kit you purchased and they are:
1 - Sprinkle some cal-hypo on a stain (organic)
2 - Rub a Vitamin C tablet on a stain (iron)
3 - Rub some dry acid (i.e. pH Downs) on a stain (copper)

Because of the old heater fiasco, copper would be a concern, but let's see if any of your tests confirm anything. If your pH, TA, and CH have gotten out of control, then any of those items above could also be trapped under some scale making it more difficult to treat. Of course there is the concern about the plaster job itself.

But at this point, I wouldn't just do a no-drain treatment or anything like that as you could do more damage to your plaster than it's worth. Give those DIY tests a shot and let us know if you have any new results.

thank you! and yes, I increased the chlorine again after I posted, although I had added polyquat, so hopefully I'm safe from algae. I will try the #2 and #3 tests. I already tried the organic test.

I don't think you saw my last post. I cannot get a CH reading. do you know what i means if I have metal ions and how to get rid of them? I appreciate the help.
I am so incredibly frustrated with it.

 

[Texas Splash]

I cannot get a CH reading.

That's odd as I suspect your water is about as hard as mine down here in S.A. My CH averages 350-400. Let's be sure you are doing the CH correctly:

1. Grab a 10 ml water sample size and add 10 drops of the R-0010. Start stirring.
2. Then add 5 drops of R-0011 while stirring. The solution should turn a light red/purple color.
3. Start adding the R-0012 drops. Each one is .25. You want the sample solution to change from that purple color to a light baby blue. Examples: 4 drops to blue = 100, 8 drops = 200, 12 drops = 300, etc.

Does that help or make any difference for you? If not, I would recommend testing your fill water directly form a hose the same way to compare.

 

[JamesW]

Can you post current pictures?

Is this mustard algae?

Are you sure that it is ascorbic acid? Most likely, the stains are copper and you will need sulfamic acid to clean it now followed by a drain and refill if it can be done safely without floating the pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

See how it looks tomorrow.

If it is still bad, I would probably do a sulfamic acid treatment followed by a drain and refill (If safe) or a significant continuous dilution.

Did you have water table issues while it was drained for the new plaster?

Note: Copper is a difficult stain to deal with and even sulfamic might not work and it might even make it worse.

How bad are the blue stains?

If you have a lot of copper stains and you are going to drain and refill, I would do a sulfamic acid treatment to remove the copper before draining and refilling.

Take the heater offline for the sulfamic treatment.

STAIN SOLUTION #2 – The Copper & Scale Stuff | Jacks Magic

jacksmagic.com

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

That's odd as I suspect your water is about as hard as mine down here in S.A. My CH averages 350-400. Let's be sure you are doing the CH correctly:

1. Grab a 10 ml water sample size and add 10 drops of the R-0010. Start stirring.
2. Then add 5 drops of R-0011 while stirring. The solution should turn a light red/purple color.
3. Start adding the R-0012 drops. Each one is .25. You want the sample solution to change from that purple color to a light baby blue. Examples: 4 drops to blue = 100, 8 drops = 200, 12 drops = 300, etc.

Does that help or make any difference for you? If not, I would recommend testing your fill water directly form a hose the same way to compare.

I will test the hose water. I have done the test over and over. Chems are new. Tried the 5 drops of R12 first, tried diluting the sample with distilled water, tried diluting and the 5 drops first, always turns purple.

Will report back after testing hose water! thank you!

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Can you post current pictures?

Is this mustard algae?

Are you sure that it is ascorbic acid? Most likely, the stains are copper and you will need sulfamic acid to clean it now followed by a drain and refill if it can be done safely without floating the pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

It is difficult to tell based on the pictures.

I suspect that sulfamic acid will be the best choice followed by a drain and refill or significant dilution.

Note: Any treatment has risks and costs.

The treatment might not work and it might cause more problems.

Note: Draining can cause damage to the pool.

Never drain unless you can verify that it is safe to do so.

Do your research and get enough information to make an informed decision.

All decisions are at your own risk.

Maybe contact Jack’s as they have experience with copper.

Contact Us | Jacks Magic

jacksmagic.com

 

[Texas Splash]

Also remember, when it comes to the CH test, keep adding drops. If must change from purple to light baby blue. If you stop too soon it will never change. Your CH could easily be 500 or more. That's 20 drops of R0012.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Marci, for now, I wouldn't leave the FC close to zero. It's so dang hot that you'll get algae right away if it hasn't started already. Once you get algae, you'll be forced to do a SLAM Process before doing any treatment for metals. There are 3 simple tests you can do at home along with the ID Kit you purchased and they are:
1 - Sprinkle some cal-hypo on a stain (organic)
2 - Rub a Vitamin C tablet on a stain (iron)
3 - Rub some dry acid (i.e. pH Downs) on a stain (copper)

Because of the old heater fiasco, copper would be a concern, but let's see if any of your tests confirm anything. If your pH, TA, and CH have gotten out of control, then any of those items above could also be trapped under some scale making it more difficult to treat. Of course there is the concern about the plaster job itself.

But at this point, I wouldn't just do a no-drain treatment or anything like that as you could do more damage to your plaster than it's worth. Give those DIY tests a shot and let us know if you have any new results.

Ok, So the pH down is hard because it dissolves rather quickly.

I did it several times, even had someone else looking at it with me to see.
Could not tell if it really helped the stains at all.

Same result with the vitamin c tablet, after several times.

I ran the CH test over and over and video'd it 4 times.

Before I read the "baby blue" comment:
hose water (they are titled if I get the wrong)

diluted pool water

after the baby blue comment:
hose water

Diluted pool water

Even if I just live with the stains (which drive me bonkers), I need to solve this or they will take over the whole pool, I'm afraid. I have even thought about just replastering again, which is not really in my budget, but if I don't know what's going on, how can I be sure it won't happen again?

With staffing shortages, I don't know how to vet a pool company to be sure they even know what they are doing. I already got screwed over once. UGH!!!!

 

[Texas Splash]

Okay, so in video #3 you actually got to the baby blue. Great! With hose water, that CH result makes sense. In video #1, I believe you stopped too quickly (still purple). In addition, you're using the 25 ml sample size which requires more reagent.

I don't think you need to mess with distilled water at teh moment. Let's stick to teh basic. I would recommend the 10 ml sample size as I noted above in Post #5. Smaller sample size and less drops which is good for you. Don't stop so soon though. You should see the same light baby blue with pool water as you did with the hose test from video #3. Don't be surprised if you need to add 20-30 drops of R-0012. Your CH is probably higher than you think. When using the 10 ml sample method, each drop equals 25.

The 25 ml sample method is fine for owners who expect to have a very low CH result, and I don't expect that with you unless you filled the pool with a water softener, and I doubt that.

If you have any doubts about my post above (#5), here is the link as well.

Calcium Hardness

A drop-based test that measures the hardness in your water. Once measured, it is used … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Okay, so in video #3 you actually got to the baby blue. Great! With hose water, that CH result makes sense. In video #1, I believe you stopped too quickly (still purple). In addition, you're using the 25 ml sample size which requires more reagent.

I don't think you need to mess with distilled water at teh moment. Let's stick to teh basic. I would recommend the 10 ml sample size as I noted above in Post #5. Smaller sample size and less drops which is good for you. Don't stop so soon though. You should see the same light baby blue with pool water as you did with the hose test from video #3. Don't be surprised if you need to add 20-30 drops of R-0012. Your CH is probably higher than you think. When using the 10 ml sample method, each drop equals 25.

The 25 ml sample method is fine for owners who expect to have a very low CH result, and I don't expect that with you unless you filled the pool with a water softener, and I doubt that.

If you have any doubts about my post above (#5), here is the link as well.

Calcium Hardness

A drop-based test that measures the hardness in your water. Once measured, it is used … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

Thank you so much. That's super helpful!

I just thought if I got purple at all, I was supposed to dilute and/or put 5 drops of r12 in first?

Do my results not show that I have metal ions? I have no doubt that my calcium is high but I would not have thought I'd get this kind of staining in less than a year. I also thought I'd see more white scale at the water line if it's a big problem.

If it's scale, there's nothing I can do about it? Other than try to keep the pH at 6.8? what is the best way to measure pH since the tubes only show to 7.0?

Thank you. I'll test again tomorrow and see what I get for the pool water, undiluted. So the end color in video 3 is what I'm going for I guess.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Okay, so in video #3 you actually got to the baby blue. Great! With hose water, that CH result makes sense. In video #1, I believe you stopped too quickly (still purple). In addition, you're using the 25 ml sample size which requires more reagent.

<cut>

Today's numbers:

FC 9
pH 7.2
TA 50
CH 550
CYA 60

and possibly better pics below.
Major Concern: even if I just live with these they will get worse if I don't figure out what's causing them

Questions:
--Jack's Magic stain protocols can also damage plaster, correct?

--Doesn't the purple in my CH tests indicate a metal problem? how do I fix that? Especially considering I get purple even with my hose water. I did put a culator in the pump basic, it's been there at least 2 weeks

--what is the best way to test pH under 7.0, since that's what the Taylor vials go to?

--is there a filter I can add to my hose to get the CH out, is that worth it? Does the CH level keep rising on its own?

--would a pool professional be able to tell me if the plaster is the problem, and possibly what the stains are?

--how do you find a competent pool professional? I failed miserably the last time, obviously (I didn't even tell y'all everything wrong)

I really appreciate the help.

 

[JamesW]

Jack's Magic stain protocols can also damage plaster, correct?

Ask Jack’s what risk there is to the plaster from doing a treatment.

Anything strong enough to remove the stains can potentially also affect the plaster.

I cannot say for sure that it will cause damage and I cannot tell you that anything is perfectly safe.

Everything has risks and costs.

My goal is to try to provide you enough information so that you make an informed decision.

 

[JamesW]

Doesn't the purple in my CH tests indicate a metal problem?

Probably.

Especially considering I get purple even with my hose water.

Test the pool water and hose water for metals including copper, iron and manganese.

I did put a culator in the pump basic, it's been there at least 2 weeks

Those probably do not work, in my opinion.

would a pool professional be able to tell me if the plaster is the problem, and possibly what the stains are?

Assuming that they actually know what they are doing.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Probably.

Test the pool water and hose water for metals including copper, iron and manganese.

Those probably do not work, in my opinion.

Assuming that they actually know what they are doing.

Thank you!

How do I test for copper, iron and manganese?

Do you have advice for how to vet a pool company?

 

[Texas Splash]

I just want to point out something you noted above. It's very possible you have some metals from the old heater mess, but you mentioned again about purple from the hose water. Remember almost all CH testing starts with that purple shade before turning light blue. It would be very odd to have any copper from your fill water. It seems as though you cracked the code in the CH test with a CH of 550.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

I always assumed my CH was high

Unfortunately I still don't know what to do about any of this and my pool is just going to get worse and worse if I can't figure it out

 

[Texas Splash]

Good morning NPG! It would be ideal if your plaster contractor was more engaged, but it doesn't sound like they are in the picture anymore. For the time being, I would continue to keep your water TFP-balanced with TFP recommended levels. I looked at your Poolmath logs and you appear to be doing well in that regards. The concern is we really can't seem to confirm if the issue is metals (copper) or something related to the plaster application.

If the staining is from copper from the previous heater, there's not much you can do about it until such time you might consider a sulfamic acid treatment followed by a drain and refill or significant dilution as recommended by @JamesW. If you elect to do so, I would recommend waiting until Nov - Feb as the water will be cooler and you should be able to reduce the likelihood of algae if your FC level is required to be lower during the treatment. You mentioned earlier that you struggled with the pH Down test. Another way of trying that test is by placing some of the pH Down in a thin sock or nylon, attaching it to the end of a pole, and holding it in place and gently rubbing it around for a short time. Figured you might want to try that when you get time.

If the staining is a plaster issue, there's not much you can do at this point unless the plaster contractor is willing to reengage. You must be very frustrated and disappointed about how all of this turned out from the start and with the bad advice given by the techs. Sorry to see you going through this experience.