Kim,
Responses integrated below prefaced with a '>'
I forgot to tell you my name is Kim, and I am a former pool plasterer many years ago.
> Thanks Kim for the introduction
Pool sand or aggregate is an off-white color. I think the fact that the smooth plaster part is gone indicates an advanced stage of this erosion problem.
> As I look at the entire pool, the erosion is predominately on the left side of the pool. The steps seem to be the worse, but the problem seems to be progressing rather than subsiding, even though all chemistry measurements are with acceptable ranges. Of course it doesn't make the pool unusable, but the rough patches can scuff up the skin
Were the spots smooth when first noticed and now are more rough to the touch?
> The spot starts out generally with a small discoloration. When I feel one that is starting it feels different (maybe slightly rougher) but only where the discoloration is.
I would think that the spotting would have been visible within the first year. Yes, no?
> I didn't notice the spots until about a year and a half or so. Of course just after the warranty had ended.
I am hoping that you have some records to show that you informed the plasterer at the beginning of all this.
> well in May of 2008 a few months after the re-plastering was done, I had them come out to look at brown speck marks which unfortunately was rust marks from an old heater. During that visit, they did do water testing of which they recorded on the copy of the sheet they left me. It shows that the Ph was about 8 but all other measurements were within acceptable levels. Additionally, CYA readings (if they were taken) were not documented as are referenced in the letter at the bottom.
I am curious what state you are located in, but some states have a contractor's license board that you could contact and ask for an inspection.
> I live in California in the San Francisco Bay area west side.
I can provide some literature to you that would help inform the agent if he isn't familiar with this problem. I have worked with some CA and AZ agents in the past.
> I appreciate any information you can send me and would be happy to send you my personal email address for that. You make reference to 'agents' and I assume you are referring to contractors/inspectors?
Essentially, the spots can be caused by a combination of things and the degree of abuse. First, the plasterer usually adds too much calcium chloride to the mix, then the plaster hardens too fast and they splash water onto the surface to soften up the plaster which weakens certain areas of the plaster surface. Then over time, deterioration takes place and (balanced) water will dissolve the weak and soft cement material (back into the pool water) causing increased porosity of those areas or spots.
Interestingly, your plaster does not look like a lot of calcium chloride was added, but that doesn't change the final outcome if true.
> Can you tell me what you are looking for in the plaster to conclude that it had Calcium chloride abuse?
> Can you also tell me what the reasonable range for CYA is? Bioguard testing results shows it to be 30-200 and Leslies show it to be 30-99. In any cases I have never exceeded 90.
>As I was responding to your questions, I received a response from the refinisher which essentially tries to negate my concerns. The enclosure that was sent with it came from http://www.poolspanews.com/2008/052/052acid.html The letter states as follows:
Re: Plaster staining
John,
We once again visited your pool. Again we found the cynauric acid level to be high (90). Last year in August we saw the pool, offered to drain and repair the plaster. Because we needed to sand the finish we could not guarantee that there would be an even color once done. This was not the first time we visited your pool, as far back as May of 2008 we saw and talked to you about your chemical readings.
Stains and improper maintenance are not covered under warranty. You claim that you have been taking your water into a pool company to have it tested and they recommend higher levels of cynauric acid than the pool industry and the National Pool Plasters Council. This is not your personal fault that the pool company who checks your chemicals does not adhere to industrial standards.
However we have three times tried to offer help. Keep in mind what you have had happen is not caused by the plaster. The last time we have had this happen was in the mid 80's when stabilizers became popular and this problem began to occur. I have enclosed an article in regards to cynauric acid problems.
You state in your last letter of October 3, 2011 that you made the right decision not to have us drain and repair the pool. Unfortunately this problem that you find yourself in now could have been averted if you had let us drain the pool, sanded the pool, refilled with new water, and you followed our advice. The only way to stop the staining would have been new water and rebalancing the pool. At this juncture the pool is no longer repairable.
Responses integrated below prefaced with a '>'
I forgot to tell you my name is Kim, and I am a former pool plasterer many years ago.
> Thanks Kim for the introduction
Pool sand or aggregate is an off-white color. I think the fact that the smooth plaster part is gone indicates an advanced stage of this erosion problem.
> As I look at the entire pool, the erosion is predominately on the left side of the pool. The steps seem to be the worse, but the problem seems to be progressing rather than subsiding, even though all chemistry measurements are with acceptable ranges. Of course it doesn't make the pool unusable, but the rough patches can scuff up the skin
Were the spots smooth when first noticed and now are more rough to the touch?
> The spot starts out generally with a small discoloration. When I feel one that is starting it feels different (maybe slightly rougher) but only where the discoloration is.
I would think that the spotting would have been visible within the first year. Yes, no?
> I didn't notice the spots until about a year and a half or so. Of course just after the warranty had ended.
I am hoping that you have some records to show that you informed the plasterer at the beginning of all this.
> well in May of 2008 a few months after the re-plastering was done, I had them come out to look at brown speck marks which unfortunately was rust marks from an old heater. During that visit, they did do water testing of which they recorded on the copy of the sheet they left me. It shows that the Ph was about 8 but all other measurements were within acceptable levels. Additionally, CYA readings (if they were taken) were not documented as are referenced in the letter at the bottom.
I am curious what state you are located in, but some states have a contractor's license board that you could contact and ask for an inspection.
> I live in California in the San Francisco Bay area west side.
I can provide some literature to you that would help inform the agent if he isn't familiar with this problem. I have worked with some CA and AZ agents in the past.
> I appreciate any information you can send me and would be happy to send you my personal email address for that. You make reference to 'agents' and I assume you are referring to contractors/inspectors?
Essentially, the spots can be caused by a combination of things and the degree of abuse. First, the plasterer usually adds too much calcium chloride to the mix, then the plaster hardens too fast and they splash water onto the surface to soften up the plaster which weakens certain areas of the plaster surface. Then over time, deterioration takes place and (balanced) water will dissolve the weak and soft cement material (back into the pool water) causing increased porosity of those areas or spots.
Interestingly, your plaster does not look like a lot of calcium chloride was added, but that doesn't change the final outcome if true.
> Can you tell me what you are looking for in the plaster to conclude that it had Calcium chloride abuse?
> Can you also tell me what the reasonable range for CYA is? Bioguard testing results shows it to be 30-200 and Leslies show it to be 30-99. In any cases I have never exceeded 90.
>As I was responding to your questions, I received a response from the refinisher which essentially tries to negate my concerns. The enclosure that was sent with it came from http://www.poolspanews.com/2008/052/052acid.html The letter states as follows:
Re: Plaster staining
John,
We once again visited your pool. Again we found the cynauric acid level to be high (90). Last year in August we saw the pool, offered to drain and repair the plaster. Because we needed to sand the finish we could not guarantee that there would be an even color once done. This was not the first time we visited your pool, as far back as May of 2008 we saw and talked to you about your chemical readings.
Stains and improper maintenance are not covered under warranty. You claim that you have been taking your water into a pool company to have it tested and they recommend higher levels of cynauric acid than the pool industry and the National Pool Plasters Council. This is not your personal fault that the pool company who checks your chemicals does not adhere to industrial standards.
However we have three times tried to offer help. Keep in mind what you have had happen is not caused by the plaster. The last time we have had this happen was in the mid 80's when stabilizers became popular and this problem began to occur. I have enclosed an article in regards to cynauric acid problems.
You state in your last letter of October 3, 2011 that you made the right decision not to have us drain and repair the pool. Unfortunately this problem that you find yourself in now could have been averted if you had let us drain the pool, sanded the pool, refilled with new water, and you followed our advice. The only way to stop the staining would have been new water and rebalancing the pool. At this juncture the pool is no longer repairable.