Questions about getting shocked

[lilsantanafan]

We had a person tell us that she got a shock to her arm when getting into the hot tub. 15 minutes later someone else stuck their whole arm in several different times and didnt feel any shock. he did this for an hour every ten minutes. Is it possible that if that if something was wrong, that it would happen like that?

 

[JamesW]

You need to have a licensed electrician check everything.

Did you test the GFCI test button on the breaker?

Do not let anyone touch the tub.

 

[k9mikep]

I absolutely agree. You have to make sure your tub is bonded if it is sitting on a pad. I just had a tub installed and the electrician charged me 400 to bond the tub. It's code for where I am. They run an 8 GA copper wire to points in the concrete pad then connect it to the tub or grounding rod. It prevents things like this from happening if the gfci doesn't trip or the area around the tub is energized.

 

[JamesW]

How old is the tub?

What Make and Model?

Any reports of someone feeling a shock need to be taken very seriously and a qualified professional should check everything.

I would be especially concerned if the GFCI is not tripping.

Any contact with the tub or water can be dangerous and potentially cause serious injury or death.

 

[lilsantanafan]

We have the tub shut off . The tub is at one of our rentals. I will post the info on the tub later when i return to the site. We are on the beach, and the tub is outside. I am not 100% certain of how old it is but I have worked for the company for 10 years and its been here that long. weve never had a problem with it before. I will get the info up here later. thank you for your responses

 

[Methuselah]

I've been playing around with or working in electronics for over half a century. When I get a shock from touching something I generally touch it again. Only once or twice did I get shocked twice, the rest was either static electricity or I got poked by something sharp.

Could there be a problem with the tub? ABSOLUTELY!

Is there?

I'd want to be 100% sure there wasn't before taking any risks. Also know electrical problems can be intermittent, that is, come and go. It could be a real issue that could elude diagnosis and show up months or years later.

All that said, I'll add the difficult electrical issues generally are beyond the abilities of many professionals. It's one of the hardest subjects to learn.

I'd suggest thorough inspection of all pumps for leaks, and a new heater regardless of determinations. Anywhere electricity is separated from water by gasketing should be proven leak free or considered suspect.

 

[phonedave]

I absolutely agree. You have to make sure your tub is bonded if it is sitting on a pad. I just had a tub installed and the electrician charged me 400 to bond the tub. It's code for where I am. They run an 8 GA copper wire to points in the concrete pad then connect it to the tub or grounding rod. It prevents things like this from happening if the gfci doesn't trip or the area around the tub is energized.

That is bonding, which is different from the protection that a GFCI provides. Important - yes, but it is not there in case the GFCI fails.

A GFCI measures the current going out on one leg and the current returning on the other leg. If there is a difference above the threshold, then the GFCI assumes the missing current is going somewhere else - like through you, and trips. I will not say GFCIs do not go bad, they do. But just like breakers, they are designed to fail open, not closed. Of course it can happen, that is why you are supposed to test them.

Bonding on the other hand is all about reducing differences in electrical potential. If there is a fault in the tub and the water becomes energized and you touch the water while standing on the ground, you could be shocked. Now the GFCI would help in this case, but if the situation was reversed - the patio was at a higher potential and was not bonded to the tub/water and you touched the water you would be shocked and the GFCI would not trip.

Hot tubs are not required to have a bonding grid around them. At least as of the 2014 NEC. Or to be specific. A hot tub does not require a bonding grid if:

- The tub is self contained and listed for above ground use
- It is not for indoor only use
- The top of the tub is 28" or move above the ground.

Of course the tub must also be installed according to the manufacturer's directions.

It is still a good idea to put one in. I have one around my tub.

 

[bradgray]

We had a person tell us that she got a shock to her arm when getting into the hot tub. 15 minutes later someone else stuck their whole arm in several different times and didnt feel any shock. he did this for an hour every ten minutes. Is it possible that if that if something was wrong, that it would happen like that?

Yes absolutely possible. We've been shocked many times servicing tubs. New and old. In every case its happened to us, *the water was allowed to energize* because the electrician didn't put a GFI breaker in the system. We had to start including this inspection in our own audit before adding to our service because builders are doing it so often.

Local codes may differ as far as where it goes, but national code requires that a GFI be in that line. In our area, we have a lot of AC Disconnects outside with the GFI inside on the main distribution panel. We prefer the breakers outside because AC disconnects fail spectacularly if they're pulled and not reinstated all the way. First thing I'd check is to make sure that GFI breaker exists, and if it does, hit "Test".

As far as 10 years without issue, you may have a small leak internally that you've never had before. And its been a sleeping bear all this time.

Edit* changed language to avoid confusion about source of issue.

 

[phonedave]

Yes absolutely possible. We've been shocked many times servicing tubs. New and old. In every case, it was because the electrician didn't put a GFI breaker in the system. We had to start including this inspection in our own audit before adding to our service because builders are doing it so often.

Local codes may differ as far as where it goes, but national code requires that a GFI be in that line. In our area, we have a lot of AC Disconnects outside with the GFI inside on the main distribution panel. We prefer the breakers outside because AC disconnects fail spectacularly if they're pulled and not reinstated all the way. First thing I'd check is to make sure that GFI breaker exists, and if it does, hit "Test".

As far as 10 years without issue, you may have a small leak internally that you've never had before. And its been a sleeping bear all this time.

Not having a GFCI is not the reason for being shocked.

Not having a GFCI IS a symptom of a missing safety device, but the underlying reason for getting shocked still needs to be determined and corrected.

It is all well and good to have a safety device, but it is even better not to ever need it.

 

[bradgray]

Not having a GFCI is not the reason for being shocked.

Not having a GFCI IS a symptom of a missing safety device, but the underlying reason for getting shocked still needs to be determined and corrected.

It is all well and good to have a safety device, but it is even better not to ever need it.

This is a good clarification; I can understand how my choice of language could confuse the issue. I wasn't suggesting the shock was caused by the GFCI, rather that the most likely scenario in our experience was that one didn't exist at all to prevent the electrical current from reaching the water. As has been said, GFCI failures that permit this to occur are rare, so it's reasonable to assume it may be missing altogether.

If it was there, it's more likely this post would have been titled "my hot tub keeps tripping immediately."

This is why I ended with the remark about a leak being the possible issue that triggered the awareness of the aforementioned GFI situation.

 

[Dirk]

As pointed out, you need a pro to diagnose the problem. But not just any pro. Not every electrician "in the book" will be qualified to fix something like this, so don't assume they are. You need a licensed electrician that specializes in pool and hot tub installation and maintenance. When shopping for the right guy, be sure to ask about their experience and knowledge level in this specific area.

On a side note: when I was first learning about being a landlord, one of the "rules" I was taught that stuck with me was: never own a rental with a body of water (pools, hot tubs, etc). Your situation is what it is, and perhaps competition dictates the inclusion of a hot tub, but you're getting a taste of why this "rule" has merit. And electrical issues are just the tip of the iceberg. I know there are thousands and thousands of successful rentals with pools and hot tubs, that never have problems, but I sure wouldn't want to take on the risk. How necessary is a hot tub to your bottom line?

 

[phonedave]

This is a good clarification; I can understand how my choice of language could confuse the issue. I wasn't suggesting the shock was caused by the GFCI, rather that the most likely scenario in our experience was that one didn't exist at all to prevent the electrical current from reaching the water. As has been said, GFCI failures that permit this to occur are rare, so it's reasonable to assume it may be missing altogether.

If it was there, it's more likely this post would have been titled "my hot tub keeps tripping immediately."

This is why I ended with the remark about a leak being the possible issue that triggered the awareness of the aforementioned GFI situation.

It could also happen from a tub without a bonding grid, and a high potential in the earth (some some reason). That would happen even with a working GFCI. That would even happen with an open breaker or removed disconnect (since the grounded conductor - aka the neutral) would still be connected.

I never liked the reasoning of the NEC. You don't need a bonding grid if the top of the tub is over 28" from the ground because you have to climb a set of non-conductive stairs to get into the hot tub, therefore you will not have one leg on the ground and the other in the tub. Yeah, but what about standing there and sticking your arm in? Theoretically that is even worse because the path could be through your heart (as opposed to your groin).

I get your point as well, but sometimes we forget that not everybody is as understanding about the situation, that is the beauty of these forums, people feel welcome.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[phonedave]

As pointed out, you need a pro to diagnose the problem. But not just any pro. Not every electrician "in the book" will be qualified to fix something like this, so don't assume they are. You need a licensed electrician that specializes in pool and hot tub installation and maintenance. When shopping for the right guy, be sure to ask about their experience and knowledge level in this specific area.

On a side note: when I was first learning about being a landlord, one of the "rules" I was taught that stuck with me was: never own a rental with a body of water (pools, hot tubs, etc). Your situation is what it is, and perhaps competition dictates the inclusion of a hot tub, but you're getting a taste of why this "rule" has merit. And electrical issues are just the tip of the iceberg. I know there are thousands and thousands of successful rentals with pools and hot tubs, that never have problems, but I sure wouldn't want to take on the risk. How necessary is a hot tub to your bottom line?

I know that the people on this forum do not represent the majority, but I myself would be leery of going into a pool, or even more leery about going into a hot tub at a rental anyway. I suspect many of the people here feel the same way. I know some people bring a test kit with them.

I will go into a commercial facility, but at an airbnb or vrbo, not so much.

 

[Dirk]

I know that the people on this forum do not represent the majority, but I myself would be leery of going into a pool, or even more leery about going into a hot tub at a rental anyway. I suspect many of the people here feel the same way. I know some people bring a test kit with them.

I will go into a commercial facility, but at an airbnb or vrbo, not so much.

It's the TFP Curse. Once you start hanging out here and begin to understand what makes a pool "clean" and what doesn't, trusting any pool but your own is, well, a challenge.

 

[JamesW]

To me, all non-TFP pools look like the pool in this video.

 

[phonedave]

It's the TFP Curse. Once you start hanging out here and begin to understand what makes a pool "clean" and what doesn't, trusting any pool but your own is, well, a challenge.

Yep, and jetted tubs as well.