Pump Loses Prime Every Night

[chatcher]

Okay, here is something I don't get...maybe one of you gurus can answer. If the pump holds prime when I close the valves to the skimmers and drain, wouldn't that indicate that there is a leak on the suction side somewhere (i.e. pvc from skimmers or drain)?

Closing the valves to the skimmers and drain has isolated the problem to the PUMP side of those valves. Look at it this way - your pump/filter is the high point in a continuous circuit from pool to pump to pool. If there is no leak, any tendency for water to run back into the skimmers and drain is countered by the pulling of water from the returns up to the pump. Just a like a siphon or drinking straw. If there is a leak near the pump or filter, gravity will tend to pull the water back into the pool through the skimmers and drain, and through the returns in the other direction. The water is replaced by air leaking in to the system. By closing the valves, you prevent the water from returning to the the skimmers and drain. Odds are, the leak is somewhere in the equipment at the pad. To isolate between pump and filter you have a few options. If it is a very fast leak, you may be able to listen for it when you open the skimmer valve with the pump turned off. If you have unions between the pump and filter, open that line and plug (or tape) off the pump side, open the skimmer valve, and see if you lose the water in the pump. If so, the leak is between the union and the skimmer valve. I have clear pipe between my pump and filter, so in my case if air was coming in at the filter I would see air in that line moving toward the pump. Also, if the leak is at the filter or anywhere on the pressure side of the pump, you would expect to see some water coming out when the pump is on UNLESS it is leaking to waste from your multiport valve. Do you have any way to see what's going on in your waste line (a union to disconnect it, or a clear section, or possibly watching what comes out the other end)?

Adding a check valve may very well solve the problem by preventing the effect of the leak, but it won't fix the leak.

 

[h2o]

Okay, here ase some pics of mu equipment. I really think the belly ring is going to be the culprit as cleaning my filter coincides with the start of the problem. The water flows from my pump through the multi-port valve and into my filter. It then runs out of the filter, through the auto-chlorinator and into my heat pump. From there it flows out to the return jets.

 

[h2o]

More pics...

 

[waste]

Um... not the most efficient plumbing I've seen, but that won't cause the problem you're having.

Thanks for the pics :!:

Once the pump has reprimed, do you have air bubbles in the pump, visible through the lid? If so, I think you need to check the threaded connection into the pump - you can dribble water on it with the pump running and see if the bubbles lessen or go away. I would check this out before messing with the filter o- ring, IMO - this is the most likely place that you have a small leak.

 

[New2Me]

I'd check the filter gasket. If it is an O-ring it may very well leak under vacuum and seal under pressure. Make sure that the O-ring seating groove is clean, and that there isn't DE stuck in it. Listen carefully when you shut off the pump for where the air is being drawn in at. Good Luck!

 

[h2o]

Well, the saga continues...

I poured water over every connetion and valve I could find with no discernable changes in the air bubbles under the pump lid. After that, I completely disassembled the filter. I replaced the standpipe and drain plug o-rings and inspected the belly ring for cracks, etc. The belly ring was in good shape so I lubed everything up real good a reassembled. I fired up the pump and let it run for a few minutes, then shut it down again. Sure enough, air filled the pump basket and it lost prime.

I really don't know where to go from here. I know that having the pump running dry every morning until it catches prime can't be good for it. I have been following THIS THREAD as he has pretty much the same issues that I do, except I don't have bubbles in my return jets. I don't want to continue to just throw money at it guessing what it might be either.

Suggestions?

 

[dschlic1]

Try this: one by one leave only one suction side valve open at a time. See if you still have bubbles in the pump basket. This may tell you which suction piping is letting air into the system.

 

[New2Me]

My post on the belly gasket was in reference to the pump draining the basket when shut off. If you turn off the pump and turn the multi-port valve to OFF (or STOP,) does the pot still drain? If so your loss of prime leak is between the valve and the pool(in the pump and piping), if not, then it is on the other side of the valve (filter, booster pump and piping, heater, flow meter, chlorinator, piping.)
Did you just notice the bubbles in the pot, or could they have been there previously? I noticed in the pictures that your skimmer(s) and drain valves are not fully open, this could cause cavitation bubbles. Closing the skimmers with the drain fully open usually gets the bubbles out of mine, the skimmers always seem to add air for me. Either way, bubbles in the pot shouldn't cause loss of pump prime.
I know that these types of problems can be hard to pinpoint, you'll have to check every connection. With a little luck, (and I'm sure a lot of sweat) you'll find it! Good Luck!

 

[h2o]

I have decided it's time to revive this thread. I recently had a leak on the pressure side that I had to repair. That thread is HERE. While I was doing this, I replaced the entire section of pipe between the pump and multi-port valve with a check valve in it.

Here is what I now know. With the check valve installed, I no longer lose prime immediately like I was, but I do lose some water in the pot overnight. I think this is because the threaded fitting in the top of the pump has a slow leak. I guess I didn't screw the new one in enough. Even with the pot full, I still lose pressure between the check valve and the returns. I know this because my heater displays "P5" (no pressure) and my filter is full of air. When the pump is running, I can bleed all of the air out of the filter and within a few minutes, there is more air in it.

This is really frustrating. I have replaced and/or lubed every gasket I can find with the exception of the spider gasket on the multi-port valve. Even with the multi-port in the closed position, I would still lose prime.

 

[New2Me]

Have you pulled the pump body apart and checked to make sure that it is sealed? This could be your small overnight leak. I'd also recommend the use of pipe thread sealant, not just teflon tape, on joints.

Even with the multi-port in the closed position, I would still lose prime.

Not sure what you mean here. Try to isolate the leak(s) one by one, assuming your valves hold.
When you have it running with all possible air purged, shut off pump and immediately close valves from skimmer(s) and drain(s) and multi-port. The pot should stay full, if it doesn't, your skimmer/drain valves leak, and if the filter drains your connections to it leak. If the pot stays full, open the skimmers/ drains. If the pot empties, your skimmer/drain valves are OK, leak is between them and multi-port. If the pot remains full, leak is after multi-port. I have had leaks before from the threaded connections going into the filter, too. Do you get any "spit-outs"(squirts that stop on their own) when you start and stop the pump, from around the pot lid, or any valves or connections? Do any of the valves have bleeders? The check valve has shown you that the major leak is after it, either the multi-port or the filter, this is where I'd concentrate my attention. I don't think that a leak after the filter would allow it to drain.

When the pump is running, I can bleed all of the air out of the filter and within a few minutes, there is more air in it.

It also looks like there is not a shut-off valve on your drain line, one would help you if your multi-port leaks through(could be source of air entering filter if there are not bubbles in the pot.) Your suction lines(or pot lid) have a leak if there are bubbles in the pot( or too much suction in a skimmer is creating a venturi, sucking air.) If there are no bubbles in the pot, your pot to pump seal, or the pump seal itself is leaking. Everything after that is under pressure with the pump running, would take a venturi type leak at the multi-port to suck in air between pump and filter, another good reason to put a stop valve on waste line.
POP is what you're going to need, you'll find it! Good Luck!!

 

[h2o]

I may have found the culprit. Just for sh!ts and grins, I decided to go ahead and replace the spider gasket and o-ring on the multiport valve. As it turns out, my spider gasket was really smashed in. I had no idea what a good one looked like so I had no frame of reference.

I picked up some Amazing Goop (basically super glue) from Lowe's on a recommendation from the pool store. I put several dots of it around the gasket and seated it, but somehow I created a siphon from the return line and water got all in it. I went ahead and put it all back together but I have no idea if the glue set properly as it was only in for about 30 seconds before the water came up. I was going to wait until in the morning to fire the pump back up.

What do you guys think? Will it be okay or should I (read: can I?) pull the gasket out and glue it in again?

 

[spishex]

You'll probably be just fine. Glue is a good idea for these gaskets, but not always necessary. Just keep an eye on your backwash line and make sure it's not losing water on filter.

 

[h2o]

All is well with the world again, kind of. The spider gasket seems fine and I no longer hear the gurgling from the filter when I turn the pump off, BUT the top of the multiport valve has a slow leak now. :grrrr:

I'm beginning to feel like Schleprock. Everytime I try to fix one problem, I create another one. I installed a check valve and the threaded fitting leaks. Then, I replace a spider gasket and the valve leaks. I replaced th o-ring on the multiport and lubed it up with magic lube real well before I installed and I tightened each screw up as tight as I could get it. I guess I will pull it back apart this weekend and try it again.

 

[spishex]

Don't over tighten the screws. If you need to you can always use a little silicone around it.

 

[h2o]

Don't over tighten the screws. If you need to you can always use a little silicone around it.

Initially, I only sugged them up real well, but I noticed the leak after I fired the pump back up. I tightened them up really tight after that and it made the leak noticably smaller.

Typically, how tight should you tighten it? As foor the silicone, I guess you would just run a really small bead around the outside of the top before you put it back on?

 

[waste]

When you replaced the multi lid you may have pinched the o- ring Pull it back apart and check the o -ring. When you reassemble it tighten the screws in pairs do N -S then E- W (I know there are 10 screws and that doesn't equate to NSEW, but do it as close as you can) this will keep even pressure on the o- ring and help prevent pinching it. Then throw the other screws in in opposite pairs and all should be good. As for how tight to go, put them on finger tight and give them 1/4 to 1/2 turn with the screwdriver.

I hope you get the leak to stop!

 

[h2o]

Thanks for all of the help and responses. I will look at doing that again before I resort to the silicone. The big parts are done, now I just have a couple of small leaks to take care of (and a big hole in the yard to fill back in).

 

[h2o]

Okay, put this one in the books...she's done. I pulled the top off, cleaned everything real well again, lubed up the o-ring and put it all back together (again). Alas, no more leak! :woohoo:

Now, I just need to fix the leaking threaded fitting on the top of the pump! :blah:

 

[civicturbo]

Wow, good thread, I have the same problem and have the same brand/model DE filter and that SOB loves to leak! It all started when i took it apart to rplace the leaking oring on the very bottom of the housing. Put it all back together lubed and everything and i leaked leaked worst then ever Now instead of dripping, i got a small stream of water coming out the bottom. I learned all water leaks can be air leaks when the pump is off and cause a loss of prime IF there are no check valves. They equip. is probaly 6 feet higher than the pool surface and 40 feet or more from the pool. So I feel that the lack of a check valve on each of the 2 return lines was lazy/cheap on the pool builders part.
Soulution: I took apart the filter for the 5th time, used Ultra Copper RTV (auto store) on the bottom oring, and some marine putty aroung the fiberglass/plastic section in the base of the tank on recommendation from Leslies pool and Spa, that area looked rough and there may have been a leak. The "belly" seal always drips a little and the brass hardware for the ring is starting to strip out. Soo lots of Alladin Majic lube and wrench it tight for now.
Well That solved the problem, there is no leak from the bottom i can see ( you have to look into the hole in the black stand with a flashlight). and the basket hold prime over night! The belly ring still weaps a little, and from the stains down the side I would say its been doing this for years! every other time i take it apart it seals nice, then the other time it leaks. :|
Check valves: So I'm putting in the missing valves, Jandy 2/2.5" ones. THe directions say that there shoud be at least 18" of water down stream from the valve so that there will be significate pressure on the flap to hold seal. Iv'e dug up the area in front of the equip. and found that there are no valves there (a possibilty, they could have been there and bad by now) and kept digging because These valves have windows and are serviceable, so I don't want them under ground. I'm cutting into the pipe as it becomes horizontal and few feet away from the equip slab. I have a nice irrigation box from Lowes (20 bucks) that will make the valves accessable :-D
I will post picks if anyones is interested.

 

[geekgranny]

Wow, good thread, I have the same problem and have the same brand/model DE filter and that SOB loves to leak! It all started when i took it apart to rplace the leaking oring on the very bottom of the housing. Put it all back together lubed and everything and i leaked leaked worst then ever Now instead of dripping, i got a small stream of water coming out the bottom. I learned all water leaks can be air leaks when the pump is off and cause a loss of prime IF there are no check valves. They equip. is probaly 6 feet higher than the pool surface and 40 feet or more from the pool. So I feel that the lack of a check valve on each of the 2 return lines was lazy/cheap on the pool builders part.
Soulution: I took apart the filter for the 5th time, used Ultra Copper RTV (auto store) on the bottom oring, and some marine putty aroung the fiberglass/plastic section in the base of the tank on recommendation from Leslies pool and Spa, that area looked rough and there may have been a leak. The "belly" seal always drips a little and the brass hardware for the ring is starting to strip out. Soo lots of Alladin Majic lube and wrench it tight for now.
Well That solved the problem, there is no leak from the bottom i can see ( you have to look into the hole in the black stand with a flashlight). and the basket hold prime over night! The belly ring still weaps a little, and from the stains down the side I would say its been doing this for years! every other time i take it apart it seals nice, then the other time it leaks. :|
Check valves: So I'm putting in the missing valves, Jandy 2/2.5" ones. THe directions say that there shoud be at least 18" of water down stream from the valve so that there will be significate pressure on the flap to hold seal. Iv'e dug up the area in front of the equip. and found that there are no valves there (a possibilty, they could have been there and bad by now) and kept digging because These valves have windows and are serviceable, so I don't want them under ground. I'm cutting into the pipe as it becomes horizontal and few feet away from the equip slab. I have a nice irrigation box from Lowes (20 bucks) that will make the valves accessable :-D
I will post picks if anyones is interested.

Most Importantly.... This thread came to my attention just in time assist a friend in need. Great info. I'm not hijacking the thread; just wanted to let you know what I discovered this a.m. and how appreciative I am to have found the thread. I'll start a new thread when I get started helping my friend. I'll take pictures too.

She likes running errands so I can send her to close by Leslies for anything I need with a list in hand and no discussion what so ever about her pool.

Yes, please post pics ASAP. I stopped by a friends house today to see what was wrong with her pool, besides masses of constant Juniper "leaves" fouling everything up. She has a guy come by to take care of the pool but she says he seems to know little even though he has been cleaning pools for years. Early this a.m. the pump was running dry, switches pulled off mechanical main pump timer, on/off switches on booster pump still in place. Pool guy told her she needs something for Polaris for it to run. Pump pot totally filled with Juniper stuff, both skimmers totally filled with Juniper junk. Over the years I've stopped over to check her pad and found same conditions. I don't know why her main pump hasn't burn up. :? Anyway when I shut off the pump water drained out of filter.

I only had a few minutes so took switches off of booster and told her to tell pool guy not to touch anything!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Polaris 280 wall fitting screen was stuck in too and didn't come out when I detached the Polaris hose fitting.

I'm taking the grids from my old filter, all in good shape and four new last fall. Taking the Aquabot and several bags and two submersible pumps to keep water moving. Taking my Taylor test kit, tools, and anything else I can think of.

She and her DH are both disabled and 70's. I don't know if I can get her to use skimmer socks as she has a hard time moving around and bending down. Once I locate all the problems, over the next week, I may have to loan her my second Pool Skim and do some mods on other returns to get enough flow to her current one (put in by a pool guy a few years ago but has never had enough flow).

She has an algae bloom started. She said, "I don't know why I have any algae as I just bought 100 lbs granular chlorine and pool guy has been stopping by every day for a week now." I didn't go into any details, which she won't bother to remember anyway. Told her to sit tight and don't let guy near pool.

In meantime I'm cutting power to pad (except when I'm trying to diagnose) I'm throwing in Aquabot, two submersibles, sending her to store for loads of chlorine. Testing first of course. I'll bet her CYA is going to be shocking [sic] After I get the pump pot, skimmers, and impeller cleaned out and some backwashing, turn on pump just to see what I can see/hear and then proceed from there in diagnosing. She has AHS so they will take care of pipes, connections, above ground and even filter and grids. I don't really have a lot of time. I'm really glad to read about check valves; going to check to see if her system (pipes) has enough room.

In the meantime the water adjustment, Aquabot, and two submersibles should do a good job of getting pool into a much better condition. BTW... I want to diagnose as much as possible so she can give hints to AHS person when she has that done. You have to play pretty dumb with them and report problems in a certain way or they might not cover some things.

She says she has been hearing the booster pump squealing when it switches on at night. Told her that was the last thing we would deal with AND AHS doesn't do booster pumps. I certainly don't have time to deal with that now.

This thread has given me a lot of tools to use. Thanks Thanks Thanks :-D

gg=alice