Pump basket no water?

[mikegmi2]

Newbie here - got home today and filter was off as it usually is from the timer, but today the pump basket was almost empty, very little water. I turned on the filter to see if it would prime a couple times and it would not, so then I grabbed my phone and took this video:

It eventually does prime up, but I have a lot of air in the basket, which means I have a suction side air leak correct?

Is there anywhere I should check first based on the fact that my basket was almost empty? Does this mean my pump drain plugs are letting air get sucked in?

Some additional info:

1. I did take apart the union just before the pump, lubed it and put back together. I also took apart the threaded pipe that goes right into the pump basket, removed some old silicone from previous owners and cleaned the threads off, then added some thread tape and reassembled.

2. I took the lid off, cleaned off the threads, cleaned the o ring off, made sure it was lubed, and put lid back on.

3. I used my heater for the first time yesterday (did something get warmed up and cause an air leak or other problem?)

4. I had my first pool party yesterday (like 10 people over, only 5 of us went swimming.

5. There is a bit of water on the surface of my multiport valve, seemingly always. I also noticed a gurgling sound coming from it when i had the pump basket disconnected from the pipe on the suction side. Can this cause a leak of some sort?

 

[Texas Splash]

Yes, we typically go to the suction side when there is a lot of air in the pump basket. But in your case, it is draining. Normally your pump basket will retain its water when the pump shuts off. If it drains-out, there's a break in the system somewhere - air leak. It could be anywhere, but I'm almost certain it will be around your equipment pad. So in your case, I would inspect all areas very closely. After the filter (pressure side), check your MPV, filter pressure relief valve if equipped, and any other valves or potential O-rings available. If any of those have a tiny air leak, the basket will empty. You did quite a bit of work on the suction side already, but if the other items don't reveal an improvement, you may need to re-attack those areas. Let's also not forget a couple basics - water level high enough in the pool and the weir (flap) working properly at the skimmer.

 

[Etchase]

You shouldn’t have water in the middle of your multiport, and although only a little water comes out, enough air can go in to drain your pump when there is no pump pressure. The spider gasket can also cause air leaks that are hard to diagnose without taking the multiport valve apart and looking at it. I got about 15 years out of my handle assembly on my multiport, and about 7 out of spider gaskets. I also developed a crack in the plastic valve body itself after 20 years. All these failures resulted in the pump basket emptying like in your case. Since you heard a gurgling there and have a little water there, that’s where I would start. Listening for gurgling sounds is good technique, especially if the pump basket drains quickly. It usually doesn’t though. Good luck.

 

[duraleigh]

You either have a major suction side leak or the water is too low in your pool. If the water is too low, the pump sucks in air right through the skimmer.

Pump running, go look at your skimmer(s)......if they are sucking in air, put some water in your pool.

The issue is NOT with your multi-port.

 

[PoolGate]

You sure the pump lid is sealing all the way? Run water slowly over it while it is trying to prime.

 

[mikegmi2]

Thanks for the replies. I’ll try to answer your questions.

Yes there is plenty water in the pool. My skimmers do not have wiers, but I don’t see that being any cause to this problem.

The MPV does look old, and it does appear to be leaking a tiny bit of water just so that the low points where the handle fits into the grooves is filled with water.

I did a bit of testing today, let the pool run all day and after about 6-7 hours went back and Darn the pump off manually so I could see what happens...sure enough the water rushed back toward the pool, almost like someone put it in reverse for a couple seconds, then silence and I’m left with an empty pump basket.
Primed it up, which took about 90-120 seconds, let it run for a few minutes, and then I let all the air out of my sand filter through the top bleeder valve. Then I shut the pump off. It held all the water just fine. No water sucking back to the pool action like before.

So what can I discern from this? Is my air leak so bad that it’s letting my sand filter get so full of air, it’s creating too much pressure and once the pump shuts off the air decompresses, pushing all the water back to the pool?
Meaning, I need to go back and check everything again and find this air leak?

Also, question for duraleigh - why are you certain this is not a problem with my MPV? I actually do think it’s on its last leg and I will need to replace it soon...but are you saying that you can’t have a suction side air leak through the MPV?

Thanks for the replies everyone, this helps a lot and I appreciate it.

 

[mikegmi2]

Adding a couple photos, one of the pump basket as it sure right now, and another of the MPV.

Oh, what is the little plastic bolt that screws into the side of the MVP for? Never touched it, just curious?

 

[Etchase]

The MVP is on the return side of the pump so it can’t be a “suction” side leak. It can cause the pump basket to empty by letting air in and allowing water to drain back into the pool. This will cause the pump to have to prime and will result in some air in the pump basket as the air in the suction pipes slowly clears out. Air leaks everywhere else on the return side can cause this too. Taking a couple minutes to achieve prime isn’t unusual. Air in the filter can cause reverse flow. The question would be how did it get there, and in your case it could be explained by you opening up the plumbing trying to find a leak. Some pool systems can clear most of the air in the filter by just running the pump for a couple hours to clear it out thru the pool returns, but it is best practice to use the filter air bleed whenever you let air into the plumbing. It can take a long time to clear the bubbles in the pump basket as well. I don’t know what the plug is on the side of the multiport is, but I would guess it’s for some winterizing procedure.

Some questions:

1: did the bubbles in the pump basket diminish after it ran for the six hours?

3: is the pump basket slowly emptying now? Meaning over several hours. This would be a symptom of a typical small leak on either side of the pump

4: is air coming out of your returns after the pump has run for an hour?

5: is water coming out of the back flow pipe when the pump is running? This is a sure indication that the spider gasket is gone. No water flowing is not an indication your spider valve is good.

6: the water on top of your multi port means there is a problem, but it might not be the cause of the basket emptying. Does the handle forcefully return to the down position when you let go of it? If it’s sticky, it won’t allow the pressure plate so seal with the spider gasket and can let air in thru the backwash pipe and other things.

Good luck with this. Check your pump basket O-Ring one more time, because that’s the easiest to fix.

 

[duraleigh]

why are you certain this is not a problem with my MPV?

etchase answered this above. Pump running, air cannot be sucked into the system on the pressure side (after the pump) You have a suction side leak and yes, you are pressurizing your filter by sucking in air and then that pressurized air pushes the water back to the pool when you turn the pump off.

Your system is sucking in air somewhere between the skimmer and the pump.....nowhere else. I suggest you reread the article on suction side air leaks and start tracking it down, The cyclical nature the pump basket is demonstrating is REALLY indicative of air being sucked in the skimmer but it seems like you have eliminated that.

No weir doors?? That really diminishes the effectiveness of your skimmer and you should fix that.

 

[mikegmi2]

The MVP is on the return side of the pump so it can’t be a “suction” side leak. It can cause the pump basket to empty by letting air in and allowing water to drain back into the pool. This will cause the pump to have to prime and will result in some air in the pump basket as the air in the suction pipes slowly clears out. Air leaks everywhere else on the return side can cause this too. Taking a couple minutes to achieve prime isn’t unusual. Air in the filter can cause reverse flow. The question would be how did it get there, and in your case it could be explained by you opening up the plumbing trying to find a leak. Some pool systems can clear most of the air in the filter by just running the pump for a couple hours to clear it out thru the pool returns, but it is best practice to use the filter air bleed whenever you let air into the plumbing. It can take a long time to clear the bubbles in the pump basket as well. I don’t know what the plug is on the side of the multiport is, but I would guess it’s for some winterizing procedure.

Some questions:

1: did the bubbles in the pump basket diminish after it ran for the six hours?

3: is the pump basket slowly emptying now? Meaning over several hours. This would be a symptom of a typical small leak on either side of the pump

4: is air coming out of your returns after the pump has run for an hour?

5: is water coming out of the back flow pipe when the pump is running? This is a sure indication that the spider gasket is gone. No water flowing is not an indication your spider valve is good.

6: the water on top of your multi port means there is a problem, but it might not be the cause of the basket emptying. Does the handle forcefully return to the down position when you let go of it? If it’s sticky, it won’t allow the pressure plate so seal with the spider gasket and can let air in thru the backwash pipe and other things.

Good luck with this. Check your pump basket O-Ring one more time, because that’s the easiest to fix.

1. No. It still constantly has air bubbles in it. After a couple hours it will start showing some of the bubbles spray out into the pool through the returns.

3. No, actually, this morning I checked and it was bone dry everywhere by equipment other than the MPV handle area.

4. Yes but it seems to take a bit longer than an hour.

5. What is the backflow pipe? Is this the waste pipe where water goes when I backwash or filter to waste?

6. It feels weaker than it felt last year, so I feel this is in fact a problem and rather than take things apart I think it will spend the $150 on a new MPV. Nobody said pool ownership was cheap lol.

Thank you again.

 

[mikegmi2]

I didn’t think the weir doors were that important. The skimmers suck in stuff, how do the weirs improve this?

I’ll absolutely go buy some new ones as the previous owners didn’t take care of anything properly, but more so I love to learn, thank you.

 

[mikegmi2]

Wanted to add a photo of my slimmer setup. It’s like there is a big basket that makes a seal at the bottom, then a smaller basket that goes inside that but is free to float up to the water level which creates a nice whirlpool. This is normal right? Of could this be letting in a bunch of air?

 

[PoolGate]

1. No. It still constantly has air bubbles in it. After a couple hours it will start showing some of the bubbles spray out into the pool through the returns.

3. No, actually, this morning I checked and it was bone dry everywhere by equipment other than the MPV handle area.

4. Yes but it seems to take a bit longer than an hour.

5. What is the backflow pipe? Is this the waste pipe where water goes when I backwash or filter to waste?

6. It feels weaker than it felt last year, so I feel this is in fact a problem and rather than take things apart I think it will spend the $150 on a new MPV. Nobody said pool ownership was cheap lol.

Thank you again.

MPVs are designed to be serviced. Specifically, the spider gasket is designed to be replaced. Much easier than plumbing in a new MPV.

 

[mikegmi2]

Oh and can someone help explain what these gray things are? I have 3 of them and assume they are for the skimmers? Do they sit on top of the basket or something?

 

[mikegmi2]

MPVs are designed to be serviced. Specifically, the spider gasket is designed to be replaced. Much easier than plumbing in a new MPV.

Oh really? I watched a few videos and from what I could discern the consensus was to replace the whole valve, because the spider gasket is actually GLUED in, making it almost impossible to scrape it out and get a new good seal with a new gasket?

 

[duraleigh]

I can't quite figure out your skimmer setup from the pic but the "whirlpool" is a REAL indicator you are sucking in air at that point. If that is a current pic, it looks like you need to empty that basket and maybe the whirlpool will stop but that IS NOT normal.

Again, I can't quite figure it out but it looks like you may have the wrong skimmer basket.

 

[Etchase]

Until you figure this out I would bleed the air in the filter whenever you can. This will make your pump and filter happier. With regard to your skimmer, that design replaces a weir with the top part floating up to the top of the water just like a weir door. The idea is to increase the velocity of the surface flow and not let stuff drift back into the pool when the pump turns off. That type of skimmer creates the little whirlpool thing by design which should be ok, unless the whirlpool goes all the way down into the skimmer pipe. Just like a weir if the top floating basket gets stuck in the up position, it can suck air into the skimmer. You might try removing the basket for a while and see if it helps your problem. If you can separate the floating part from the bottom basket leave the bottom in. Do this just for a test.

Surprising to me is that your filter can collect so much air before it starts to clear thru your returns. Not sure why that is, or how to change it. If air is let into the system thru vacuuming or popping the pump basket lid, air will usually come out of the returns pretty quickly, and stop in an hour or so.

If air is entering your pump basket for the whole pump run you have a suction side leak. I wouldn’t say this indicates your only leak, but hopefully. It gets pretty subjective, but a small amount of air like in your picture of the full basket isn’t uncommon and usually tolerated, but solid bubbles across most of the lid after the pump has been running 30 minutes or so, means a suction side leak.

When I said the backflow pipe, I meant to say backwash waste pipe.

It might be interesting to run in recirculate mode to see if your symptoms change when you take the filter out of the system. I have no idea what the results will mean, but it will be something to think about.

It’s good you had dry equipment, but I wasn’t clear in my question about the pump basket draining. After you took the picture of the pump basket full, did the water level go down slowly over several hours with the pump off, or did it stay full.

Replacing the spider gasket is fast and easy if it’s been replaced before, and left unglued or tact glued. The factory glues the entire surface and is a pain to scrape out, but usually doable. The handle assembly requires some careful work, and there are some sliding parts that if worn really aren’t repairable. I would replace the whole valve at that point. It’s not a big deal to pop the ten bolts off and look around inside to see how it looks.

If you have the plumbing to turn skimmers or drains off one at a time thru valves or stoppers, it might help you isolate the leak. You don’t have a suction side cleaner leaking do you?

Good luck.

 

[mikegmi2]

Yea, the filter gets pretty full of air, to the point where I can hear the diffusers pumping water up at the top.

As long as I bleed the air out of my filter before I turn off the pump, the pump basket will stay full. If I turn the pump off after a long time of running, and don't bleed the air, the air pushes all the water out of the basket and I have to re-prime everything next time I turn on the pump.

I will probably do that this week, take apart the MPV and see how the gaskets look. I know at least the one that creates a seal between the inside and the handle must be leaking because there is always water on top of the MPV.

Thanks for explaining the skimmers, yes this is exactly what they do...the inner basket floats up to the top and creates a whirlpool, sucking in more stuff. You make a good point...I will try removing these for a while and see if they are possibly the cause of the air getting into the system. Have to rule things out one by one.

At the beginning of the season, when the pool was super full of water, I had 0 air leaks. All of a sudden the air leak returned out of nowhere. My pool is still plenty full...higher than the mid-point of my skimmers...but I am still going to try out the theory that these floating skimmer baskets are perhaps letting in air.

 

[mikegmi2]

So I am kinda baffled now.

Just to recap, I had my suction side perfect for like 7-10 days at the beginning of the season, then slowly an air leak showed up.

In the last couple days, i've relubed and teflon taped both unions on the suction side (larger gray skimmer union and union just before pump), relubed and seated the pump basket, removed/cleaned/re-teflon taped the PVC that screws into the pump basket...smoke tested, water hose tested (neither showed definitive signs of a leak anywhere I testes)...and my air leak persists.

I've re-done, and more, everything I did at the beginning of the season.

I do have a main drain suction line but, it is plugged, and i keep the ball valve permanently closed.

I'm either not doing a good enough job with my testing, or, have somehow developed an underground leak...which would be rare.

The other thing I was thinking...if you develop 2 air leaks at once, you could water test and actually never figure out which joints are leaking air because of the fact that filling 1 will just allow more air to suck into the other leaking area. In this case, it becomes impossible to successfully detect an air leak. Wow, i've wasted a lot of time on this at this point, lol. Gotta keep at it until I figure this out.

 

[mknauss]

Try plastic wrap around fittings and valves.