Potential problem with new pool build...

Rich D

Bronze Supporter
Aug 3, 2018
377
MA
If you go this route, I'd recommend solid, non-perforated, pipe due to our clay/caliche soil.
Good point about the soil type. I have been known to overdo things a bit However If I were doing this I think I would use 6"solid pipe with 6" grates every so often all in a stone bed swale. Using 6" pipe you need very little pitch .25% is plenty.
 

proavia

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Feb 6, 2015
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Chandler AZ
Monsoon in Arizona is associated with thunderstorms and can cause localized heavy rainfall, along with broader high winds and dust storms. Some monsoon seasons here produce very little rain, other years there is heavy rainfall.

Whatever final course of action the OP decides to take, for right now the area in question needs to be graded for the water to run off away from that area. We are probably not going to see any monsoon rains in the next week or so, but they are coming. Even digging a trench now for possible future drainage pipe will direct the water away from the area.
 
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proavia

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Feb 6, 2015
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Chandler AZ
Good point about the soil type. I have been known to overdo things a bit However If I were doing this I think I would use 6"solid pipe with 6" grates every so often all in a stone bed swale. Using 6" pipe you need very little pitch .25% is plenty.
I have 75 feet of gutter, along with 25 feet of channel drain and various other 4 inch drain grates using 4 inch pipe. The gutters have never overflowed and the 4 inch drainage pipe has been able to handle the quantity of water - at least so far. I have very little slope/pitch in the pipe run - and the outlet has a 4 inch pop up cap.
 
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Oscar G.

Well-known member
In Gilbert, AZ it is perfectly fine to have rain runoff directed to the street. It will either go into the storm sewer or into the commumity common areas (retention basins). As for backyard drainage, gutters on the house and possibly have the downspouts go into 4" drain pipe. The area behind/next to the pool can also have this drainage pipe with grates every so often to move the water toward the street. Tie the gutter and other drainage pipes together and run the pipe to the front. Of course, you will need an overall downhill slope to the street. You can also tie in any spots in the side yards where water might pool. All pipes underground and out of sight.

If you go this route, I'd recommend solid, non-perforated, pipe due to our clay/caliche soil.
Thank you. Im going to be learning a lot trying to solve this problem. I see you are in Chandler, any recommendations on landscaping companies that would know how to fix this issue? Ive called a few but it is the weekend so only talked to one.
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
Monsoon in Arizona is associated with thunderstorms and can cause localized heavy rainfall, along with broader high winds and dust storms. Some monsoon seasons here produce very little rain, other years there is heavy rainfall.

Whatever final course of action the OP decides to take, for right now the area in question needs to be graded for the water to run off away from that area. We are probably not going to see any monsoon rains in the next week or so, but they are coming. Even digging a trench now for possible future drainage pipe will direct the water away from the area.
I need some clarification on the drain pipe. Would I be able to install a drain pipe along the perimeter of the pool to prevent storm water from getting under the deck? Because of my own noob ignorance, I'm having trouble visualizing this, lol
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
MONSOON.... We do not have those around these parts but it sounds like a lot of water in a little time... You definitely need to get a lot of material out from around the pool for ant type of drainage and stone to be installed so I would at the very least have a good size trench Dug around the perimeter of the pool so any storm water will get to the street instead into the pool.
How close should this trench be to the deck? Im assuming i would need the ground from the deck edge to the trench to slope toward the trench.

Also, I measured with a string level to best I could from the bottom edge of the deck to the street where the water drains and there is approximately 7 inches of drop. I was just curious how much drop I have between those points and thought it might be relevant to any suggestions you guys might have.
 

Rich D

Bronze Supporter
Aug 3, 2018
377
MA
only 7" of drop.... Well that kinda rules out the 6" pipe.. Here is a rough sketch of the trench detail I was thinking about. Because you are just trying to get the storm water I would line the trench with 30 mil poly. I think I would also use 4" perf pipe to allow more water into the pipe as well as have less standing water in the trench.

107944
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
In Gilbert, AZ it is perfectly fine to have rain runoff directed to the street. It will either go into the storm sewer or into the commumity common areas (retention basins). As for backyard drainage, gutters on the house and possibly have the downspouts go into 4" drain pipe. The area behind/next to the pool can also have this drainage pipe with grates every so often to move the water toward the street. Tie the gutter and other drainage pipes together and run the pipe to the front. Of course, you will need an overall downhill slope to the street. You can also tie in any spots in the side yards where water might pool. All pipes underground and out of sight.

If you go this route, I'd recommend solid, non-perforated, pipe due to our clay/caliche soil.
Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think this will be sufficient, no retaining wall etc needed?
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
All that water from rain runoff (granted you are in a desert), irrigation etc is going to run and seep in next to the rear pool wall. Is the rear of that wall waterproofed (answer is no), so now over time, water will migrate through the wall and compromise the plaster, cause cracking and efflorescence. What is your landscaping plan around the pool? I’d add a drain line around the pool...many options like said above.
We plan to fill in the area around the pool with landscaping rock. Theres not much room left after installing the pool
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
only 7" of drop.... Well that kinda rules out the 6" pipe.. Here is a rough sketch of the trench detail I was thinking about. Because you are just trying to get the storm water I would line the trench with 30 mil poly. I think I would also use 4" perf pipe to allow more water into the pipe as well as have less standing water in the trench.

View attachment 107944
Thanks for the info! Is this a potential DIY job or should I get a professional to take a look at it?
 

Rich D

Bronze Supporter
Aug 3, 2018
377
MA
Thanks for the info! Is this a potential DIY job or should I get a professional to take a look at it?
There is not much acquired skill required but it will be a labor intense task. That is a lot of work removing the soil and placing the rock. I would suggest getting several estimates (being on site they might be able to see other potential issues or solutions and can advise what works best for the local conditions) then determine if the price is worth saving your back. Hopefully you will find a local contractor that you like and trust that can describe or show you other jobs he has done like this that have worked over the years.
 
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setsailsoon

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
1,272
Stuart/FL
Oscar,

Sorry to enter this discussion late. Drainage can be difficult to change without good calculations and levels. This is not something to "eyeball". In my opinion the PB is not responsible for your yard drainage but he is responsible to build the pool above grade. The photo's seem to look like it's way below grade. Do you have any of the civil drawings used for the pool design? It looks like he excavated too far down then used the dimensions from the drawings for the forms which were not high enough. Another solution to this would be to add height to the pool walls increasing your pool depth a little. This isn't a trivial job but you need to be sure the french drains will really work for the amount of rain you get in a short peroid of time or you'll be wasting your money. If you go the french drain route make sure you have somebody do the calculations to be sure it will work. They should be able to show you can handle the "monsoon" rain rate without backing up and flowing into the pool. French drains typically do not handle very high volumes in a short period of time.

I hope this helps.

Chris
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
Oscar,

Sorry to enter this discussion late. Drainage can be difficult to change without good calculations and levels. This is not something to "eyeball". In my opinion the PB is not responsible for your yard drainage but he is responsible to build the pool above grade. The photo's seem to look like it's way below grade. Do you have any of the civil drawings used for the pool design? It looks like he excavated too far down then used the dimensions from the drawings for the forms which were not high enough. Another solution to this would be to add height to the pool walls increasing your pool depth a little. This isn't a trivial job but you need to be sure the french drains will really work for the amount of rain you get in a short peroid of time or you'll be wasting your money. If you go the french drain route make sure you have somebody do the calculations to be sure it will work. They should be able to show you can handle the "monsoon" rain rate without backing up and flowing into the pool. French drains typically do not handle very high volumes in a short period of time.

I hope this helps.

Chris
By civil drawings, are you talking about drawings from the local municipality or the PB? What does adding height to the pools walls entail? I feel like I am having to scramble to figure out a way to solve a problem created by a botched pool install, but I don't know. The PB super says they were aware of the slope and that it is a simple fix, just create a "V" (swale) and it will be fine. I think its quite possible they missed it and are hoping I don't raise **** about it. This admittedly has caused a lot of stress that I don't need, lol. I am calling the PB and speaking to someone above the supervisor today and voicing my concerns. thank you
 

Rich D

Bronze Supporter
Aug 3, 2018
377
MA
Essentially the pool builder is correct. If you dig a trench around the entire pool it will drain out to the street. Which is essentially what I was proposing. It's just without the pipe you would probably want to have a deeper trench because the pipe and grates allows more water to flow easier out to the street And without the plastic you be running the risk of water running down the outside of the pool shell and causing problems. The plastic and the pipe are simply taking the builder's idea making it better and adding some longevity to it.

if you were to have raised the pool you would have to have stepped up off your existing deck onto the pool which would have been awkward. I would much rather come up with a drainage solution than deal with that. The other option would have been raise the back pool beem up and along the sides with so you would have a step or possibly two in your deck. which to me creates a safety trip issue and I would still rather deal with a drainage solution. All of these options should have been discussed with you by the pool builder before the contract was even signed so you could have made the informed choice.
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
Essentially the pool builder is correct. If you dig a trench around the entire pool it will drain out to the street. Which is essentially what I was proposing. It's just without the pipe you would probably want to have a deeper trench because the pipe and grates allows more water to flow easier out to the street And without the plastic you be running the risk of water running down the outside of the pool shell and causing problems. The plastic and the pipe are simply taking the builder's idea making it better and adding some longevity to it.

if you were to have raised the pool you would have to have stepped up off your existing deck onto the pool which would have been awkward. I would much rather come up with a drainage solution than deal with that. The other option would have been raise the back pool beem up and along the sides with so you would have a step or possibly two in your deck. which to me creates a safety trip issue and I would still rather deal with a drainage solution. All of these options should have been discussed with you by the pool builder before the contract was even signed so you could have made the informed choice.
I spoke to the salesman this morning and he is going to go by and take a look today, but he said what they do is build the deck that is closest to the patio at the same height as the patio which is what they did. He was very reassuring and does not think there will be any issues. He worked in the landscaping industry for 35 years and says he has very good knowledge of yard drainage systems and still owns a landscaping company. He also told me to call the manager that is over the superintendent to discuss the issue with him. I feel better about it but I tend to be far less trusting when I have a large amount invested lol.
 

proavia

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Feb 6, 2015
1,513
Chandler AZ
I did not use a landscape company to do my drainage. I used a seamless gutter company to install the gutters and installed the drain pipe myself - after we moved in, a neighbor and I shared rental on a trencher. All the sprinkler/irrigation and drainage trenching was done with the trencher. I did not fill the trench or anywhere around the drain grates with rock - just the dirt that was removed from the trenches. The bare dirt was graded to direct flow to the drain grates and decomposed granite added to level out the surface.

I used 4" drain pipe - no perforations. The high point starts with a round grate at ground level. The grate slips directly into a 4" ninety degree fitting, and then into the 4" pipe. Each successive drain grate or downspout connects to the 4" drain pipe via a short piece of 4" pipe and a 4" tee. The end of the pipe closest to the street terminates in a 90 and a cap with a cover that pops up when water flows thru the pipe. All parts were bought at HD.
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
I spoke to the salesman this morning and he is going to go by and take a look today, but he said what they do is build the deck that is closest to the patio at the same height as the patio which is what they did. He was very reassuring and does not think there will be any issues. He worked in the landscaping industry for 35 years and says he has very good knowledge of yard drainage systems and still owns a landscaping company. He also told me to call the manager that is over the superintendent to discuss the issue with him. I feel better about it but I tend to be far less trusting when I have a large amount invested lol.
I called the manager who is over the super and he basically confirmed that the pool level was set how they do all their pools, unless a customer requests that the pool be raised etc. After the salesman has a look at the yard today, he is going to schedule a meeting with me and the super to discuss in more detail their recommendations for preventing water from causing an issue. He told me he is not concerned and wants to make sure that I am confident that there will be no issues moving forward. He also said that if I still don't feel good about everything that he would have someone independent take a look as well! I was pretty impressed he would go that far in setting my mind at ease!!
 
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Oscar G.

Well-known member
Hello everyone!

I''m not sure if the best way to resurrect a previous discussion is just to reply to it, but that's what i'm going to try...

I wanted to update my situation with the grade around the pool now that we have had significant rain. As I mentioned in the original post, our yard slopes from the back of the yard to the street in the front of the house for drainage. The PB set the height of our pool deck at the height of the existing patio floor, which they say they do on every build. This resulted in the pool being below grade in the back of the pool and along the sides.

I obviously raised my concerns with the superintendent and he said that its not a problem if I cut a "V" around the pool to allow water to flow away from the deck. I also spoke to our salesperson who has a landscaping business and he was not concerned about this issue and said there is no problem. I then had a landscaping company come out to look at it and he told me basically the same thing, doesn't look like a problem. BUT, I'm still concerned, especially after the recent rains.

I have attached pics that show the water in the "trench" during the monsoon. It did not go over the deck but right up to it. I called the super to come take a look the day after and showed him these pictures and he was still not concerned. He said that is not an issue for water to pool this way as long as it is able to recede into the "v", which it did. So basically he is saying that there is no need to have a swale to allow the water to flow off the property, but just a trench to provide a place for the water to recede. I asked him if I should install a french drain or other system and he said it wasn't necessary.

Is it possible because of the arid climate that this will be ok? I'm not sure what to do...
 

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bmoreswim

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Jul 16, 2012
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Warning: Sarcasm ahead...and then my opinion.

Looks like you'll be fine so long as it never rains harder/more than it just did. In other words, it's going to be a problem at some point. I'd ignore anyone who says otherwise until you find a contractor who gets it and knows what they are doing. But the time to find them is before the first storm much bigger than the last storm.

That said, if it overflows into the pool before it gets fixed, your pool won't cease to exist, it will just need a serious intervention (a few days to a week or more of effort to clear the water). If you don't get it done and the season ends, you have another 9 months or whatever to resolve the potential issue. When deciding if you believe the folks who've told you "it'll be fine", think about if you would be comfortable going on vacation during the monsoon season as is.
 

Oscar G.

Well-known member
Warning: Sarcasm ahead...and then my opinion.

Looks like you'll be fine so long as it never rains harder/more than it just did. In other words, it's going to be a problem at some point. I'd ignore anyone who says otherwise until you find a contractor who gets it and knows what they are doing. But the time to find them is before the first storm much bigger than the last storm.

That said, if it overflows into the pool before it gets fixed, your pool won't cease to exist, it will just need a serious intervention (a few days to a week or more of effort to clear the water). If you don't get it done and the season ends, you have another 9 months or whatever to resolve the potential issue. When deciding if you believe the folks who've told you "it'll be fine", think about if you would be comfortable going on vacation during the monsoon season as is.
I can appreciate your sarcasm and opinion, lol. I am currently looking for a contractor that specializes in drainage systems to take a look at it. I felt like I did my due diligence by getting multiple opinions and even talked to the PB owner who stated he has confidence in the superintendent and trusted his opinion, but of course he is going to say that...

I also want to guard against continuing to seek opinions and then finally getting someone to say "yep, you need a drainage system" just to separate me from my cash... lol.