Pool water level systems

[ciaka]

I am in process of building an inground pool (well, the company doing for me).
Gunite is in, they started with coping and tiles and stone.
Just found out that there is a water level system I could have gotten. Looks they can install it still but are asking about 1100 for it.
Are there any systems I can get that I can install later that will automatically do this for me?
Or, is there anything else I can do with the builder, install lines, etc, that will make this easier and automatic?

Construction manager told me I can attach the water outlet to the water spiggot by pool equipment, and once pump not running I can turn on water to top up.
But I am looking for a way to have this done automatically.

Any insight and help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[darinclifton]

do you know what they are proposing. That seems pretty steep for a water level system. What are your equipment specs?

 

[ciaka]

Merged threads. TFP Mod
I am in process of building an inground pool (well, the company doing for me).
Gunite is in, they started with coping and tiles and stone.
Just found out that there is a water level system I could have gotten. Looks they can install it still but are asking about 1100 for it.
Are there any systems I can get that I can install later that will automatically do this for me?
Or, is there anything else I can do with the builder, install lines, etc, that will make this easier and automatic?

Construction manager told me I can attach the water outlet to the water spigot by pool equipment, and once pump not running I can turn on water to top up.
But I am looking for a way to have this done automatically.

Any insight and help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[ciaka]

They offered me a solution that is essentially a round tube that is embedded into pool wall by drilling out a cavity (they said can still install since decking not formed yet), and inside that cylinder is the level sensor, to which a water pipe is connected that runs to the equipment area and eventually to a water pipe somewhere.
For my 1k is a lot. I wish they had mentioned this earlier.
I also found a SmartLevel by Kona labs. This is a wireless set that one can put onto a return pipe, that senses water level and fills it up too. Cost of this solution is about 700 bucks shipped.

Looking for a good way to not have to walk up to a garden hose and manually do this each time.

do you know what they are proposing. That seems pretty steep for a water level system. What are your equipment specs?

 

[darinclifton]

Pentair (intellilevel if your are on an intellicenter automation) makes a solution that can be installed at the pad on most return lines and there are tons of automatic hose levels as well.

 

[ciaka]

Great, thanks.
I just bought new wireless LevelSmart by kona labs. Will be installing on a return line. Easy and will help with the water level monitoring.

Pentair (intellilevel if your are on an intellicenter automation) makes a solution that can be installed at the pad on most return lines and there are tons of automatic hose levels as well.

 

[Dirk]

I use a PoolMiser and absolutely love it. It connects to a pool through an equalizer tube that offers some important added benefits. It maintains the water level with both an auto-fill valve and an overflow port. Is it too late for something like this to be added?

$1100, yikes. Sounds to me like they know they have you cornered... unfortunate. Personally, I would tell them you're going to have another contractor do it and see if they cave on the price a little, or a lot (along with actually seeing if you can get another to do it cheaper). If they want to play dirty then you can play hardball...

I wouldn't want to deal with more electronics just to keep my pool topped off, but if they work well than that might be the simpler solution. They don't solve for overflow though, which is arguably just as important as auto-fill (is to me).

On a related subject, I connected my auto-filler to my water softener, which solved for a nasty pool maintenance problem I have where I live (high CH fill water (hard water)). I don't know if that's an issue where you live, but if it is that's something to consider before the deck goes in and plumbing is all done. I can explain more about that if you're curious.

 

[ciaka]

The SmartLevel I just got has in pool sensor, solenoid valve and controller. Water is checked once an hour.
If low, solenoid opens for 7 minutes. This repeats til pool level correct.
Researchedfor while, didnt want to spend 1300+ for install.
Got this new, for 480 total. Comes in Monday, my pool equipment setup scheduled for Thursday. I'd love to put that in aroundthat time.

 

[Dirk]

Did you solve for overflow? What's the annual rain like where you live?

 

[ciaka]

The system wireless sensor is mounted inside pool. You determine level that sensor considers full. How you mount determines the low level.
Basically, you use marine putty to attach to water level tile, so you determine low and full.

Once installed, the sensor communicates with controller wirelessly, once an hour.
If water needs adding, solenoid will open for only 7 minutes then shuts off automatically.
So every hour it will add 7 minutes of water from your supply (aka water hose), then shut off . When above low water level, solenoid doesnt open.
So it does not overfill.

 

[Dirk]

I meant what happens when it rains enough to overflow your pool. If you don't have some sort of overflow system then you'll need to manually pump out water every time the pool gets near to overflowing, which is a pain. Otherwise it'll overflow over your deck and maybe into your yard and plants. All pools become saltwater-ish after a while and that won't be good for your landscaping (assuming you have landscaping). That's why I was asking about your annual rain fall. If it rains often where you live, and you don't have an overflow outlet, then you'll have to go out to your pool pad whenever the water level gets too high. And, of course, that will most likely be when it's pouring rain! My PoolMiser handles both low and high water conditions.

 

[Stoopalini]

FWIW, my PB quoted $1500 for an autolevel. I declined, but then decided I wanted one after the hole was dug (before gunite). So I asked my construction manager if I bought an autoleveler, could his crew install it into the gunite; and he said no problem.

I ended up getting a Paramount Paralevel (~$100) and they installed it into the gunite for me. The majority of the cost of an autolevel system isn't really the autoleveler itself though, but is in the supporting plumbing to make it work properly and code compliant.

You need to ensure the water pressure feeding the system is within spec (might need a PRV depending on your home's water pressure), a couple of cut-off valves, and you are required to have a backflow prevention device plumbed in as well (something like a Pressure Vacuum Breaker).

A good PRV is between $200 - $300, a pressure vacuum breaker is somewhere around $100, and then various plumbing fixtures and cutoff valves. So in parts alone, a proper autoleveler is around $700 or so in materials. Then add in the builder's mark-up and labor cost ... and that's how you get the $1100 - $1500 price tag.

If you're a DIY kind of person though, you can do this for much less.

It looks like the Kona smart level doesn't include backflow prevention or pressure control, so definitely do your research so you can plumb this in correctly. Especially if you live in an area where permits and inspections are required.



Oh, and just as FYI: Here is a thread I started when I was researching what I needed to install my autolevel:

Paralevel Install Parts List?

When installing a Paralevel, what else is needed for proper operation? Is it: T fitting to existing waterline Cut-off valve Backflow preventer PRV Lanscaping box with the cut-off valve, backflow preventer, and PRV inside Paralevel unit Is that about it, and is the order correct? My PB had...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Dirk]

Ooh, color me embarrassed. I've written pages and pages here about back flow prevention and I neglected to mention that... great post, thank you. Not sure how that applies to the OP's solution, as I don't know exactly what he settled on or how it attaches to the plumbing, but he should check into all that, yes.

FYI, my BFP was about $60 (a real one, testable, etc), and all the plumbing and valves I added to be able to mix either soft or hard water into my pool couldn't have been over $100. The PoolMiser is just a couple hundred, I think, so that's under four bills, not counting the PVC pipe (DIY labor = priceless, of course!).

 

[Stoopalini]

Not sure how that applies to the OP's solution, as I don't know exactly what he settled on or how it attaches to the plumbing, but he should check into all that, yes.

Kona is assuming a backflow prevention device, as well as a pressure reduction valve, are already installed up-stream from their valve.



Personally, I would have suggested a traditional (ie: non-electric) auto level setup at this stage though, since the OP's decking isn't poured yet. All the PB would have to do is drill a hole through the gunite for the equalizer tube to reach the autoleveler. Actually, that could be a DIY project as well, if you have the proper equipment to do it.

After spending $480 on the Kona solution, he'll still need to get a backflow preventer (~$100) and possibly a PRV ($200 - $300), and a couple of cutoff valves and piping (less than $100) ... unless he plans to tie it into a spigot, then skip the cut-off valves.

So an additional $200 - $500 is still needed to complete the setup. So adding that to the $480, It'll end up costing between $680 - $980 for the completed electronic Kona setup; which isn't far off the $1100 builder installed non-electric setup.

 

[Dirk]

I was pushing for that, as I agree. The less electronics the better! One thing I like about my PoolMiser is its equalizer tube. It's not subject to activity in the pool (like an overflow hole in the wall would be). And the unit itself can be some 30+' away from the pool. It could be back by the pad. Or even added later if he'd just run that equalizer pipe now. It'd be relatively cheap and give him an option down the road should his current solution not pan out well. For my pool, the added bonus of the tube is that during the rainy season, the floating fresh water is not being sucked off the surface by a hole in the wall, the water leaving the pool is the heavier saltwater below, which I believe retards the salt build up inevitable in all pools. A very obscure benefit to try to describe to someone in their build process, but so far it has kept my salt level very stable and I don't see much if any water exchange in my future. And water is not cheap where I live, so the 'Miser continues to pay for itself.

Oh, PRV. I didn't know that acronym. I skipped that as my auto-filler is fed by my water softener which is reduced by the main PRV to my house (enough, I hope). I just needed the BFP.

 

[jark87]

I can’t speak to the technology described above, but our PB just pulled a sprinkler station and piped it into the wall above the water line. Since the pool took up a big chunk of the backyard, we could easily give up a sprinkler station. Granted, I have to manually turn it on to add fill water, but that’s no big deal. If we’re out of town for a prolonged period, I can set the station to come on for a few minutes each week. Overflow is piped to the curb.

 

[Stoopalini]

I was pushing for that, as I agree. The less electronics the better! One thing I like about my PoolMiser is its equalizer tube. It's not subject to activity in the pool (like an overflow hole in the wall would be). And the unit itself can be some 30+' away from the pool. It could be back by the pad. Or even added later if he'd just run that equalizer pipe now. It'd be relatively cheap and give him an option down the road should his current solution not pan out well. For my pool, the added bonus of the tube is that during the rainy season, the floating fresh water is not being sucked off the surface by a hole in the wall, the water leaving the pool is the heavier saltwater below, which I believe retards the salt build up inevitable in all pools. A very obscure benefit to try to describe to someone in their build process, but so far it has kept my salt level very stable and I don't see much if any water exchange in my future. And water is not cheap where I live, so the 'Miser continues to pay for itself.

Oh, PRV. I didn't know that acronym. I skipped that as my auto-filler is fed by my water softener which is reduced by the main PRV to my house (enough, I hope). I just needed the BFP.

Ya, the Paramount Paralevel works the same way. The equalizer tube brings the water to the canister, and then you plumb the overflow (connecting to a port on the backside of the Paralevel) with an upside down U shape to the water height you want. Sounds like the Poolmiser works the same way.



The one thing I liked about the Paralevel is it doesn't use a float, like a toilet bowl setup. My construction manager said the Paralevel was the only autofill device he hasn't seen any issues with, so I went with it based on his recommendation.

I also have a PRV at my water main, but I have it set to 90PSI, and wanted to keep it there. Especially since I remodeled our master bathroom a few years back and added multiple heads to the shower. But the Paralevel has a max operating pressure of 80PSI. I happened to have a brand new PRV in my garage (left over from a previous project) so I used it to drop the pressure to 60PSI for the Paralevel.

I'd be concerned about the wireless link on the Kona device. I've just seen too many wireless interference issues in my experiences (home network, wireless musical equipment, X10 wireless, etc ...). I'm not sure I'd want to trust a wireless link in this situation.

 

[Dirk]

I'm old. I need constant supervision. I can't be trusted with a system that requires me to turn it on, and more importantly off, manually!

 

[Dirk]

I'm with ya. I've spent days in my attic hardwiring everything. The only thing I use wireless for is iApple devices. I don't like or trust wireless for anything else.

Yes, the "toilet float" is the weak link in my 'Miser, but it was here when I got here, so I didn't select it. I have replaced it once, but I believe that was a calcium build up issue from my very hard fill water. I replumbed to softener, and that gets fed by a whole house filter, so this new float should be OK. They're cheap, I may just swap them out every few years to play it safe. Glad to hear there is a better system out there.

Which brings up something we should disclose to the OP. Systems like the ones we're discussing do have a glaring potential problem built in. When you combine auto-filler with an overflow, if the auto-filler fails "on," then you could pump untold number of gallons into the overflow pipe before you discover it. That happened to me once but I must have caught it quick cause my water bill that month was fine. PBs don't like auto-fillers for this reason. But, as I said, I'm old, and I know for a fact that if I was left to manually manage my water level, I would have dumped a small lake into my yard by forgetting to turn off the hose!! I would have lost far more water that way, so the tiny risk of auto-filling is worth it to me.

Failing "off" is also an issue if you don't keep an eye on your pool. They're not fool proof. Your pool could evaporate enough to get below the skimmer and the pump would then suck it dry. There are other plumbing tricks in a pool that negate this possibility, but you generally have to know what to ask for to get those. They don't necessarily come standard with a pool, unless you have a great builder.

The OP's solution doesn't negate either of these potential "dangers." If his system's valve gets stuck open or closed, or the electronics backfire, he might face the same issues.

Auto-fillers and overflow systems are for convenience. They are not meant to replace a pool owner's vigilance and regular, daily inspection of the water level. That goes for a lot of other pool systems as well.

 

[Dirk]

OK Stoop, we've probably hijacked this thread enough. The OP certainly now has enough to go on to make up his mind about how far down this rabbit hole he wants to go. Thanks for your input!