Pool was leaking, owner drained it, pipe in concrete wall-need help.

[kristim12]

I’m trying to help an older disabled vet who had this inground pool put in maybe 2-3 years ago now. Here’s the story for context as I’ve been told it. The pool builder offered a “lifetime” warranty but of course now is no longer in business. After them trying to get the pool builder to come out and fix the leak without success they resorted to just draining the pool since it was leaking badly over several inches a day.
The pool has been empty for the most part aside from rain water for the entire time.
They’ve had several companies come out and have gotten quotes from $1600 to $10,000 for leak detection and repair costs, but no company has actually brought out any leak detection equipment.
Since there is no water in the pool I can’t do the dye leak test and from looking at it visually it looks like the damage to the outer pool is directly in line with the drain pipe. I tried to talk the owner into plugging the drain pipe but he didn’t want to pay to put water in the pool and not know if that was causing the issue, even though it seems like the most likely source. He did attempt to plug the drain at one point but said that the plug I gave him didn’t fit.
It’s a 1 1/2 inch plug, I didn’t check it myself because there is usually water in the bottom that he has to pump out so I can open the cover and he seems adamant that he just wants me to open up the wall. So I drilled with an angle grinder into the outer wall where there appears to be water damage but slightly to the left of where I thought the vertical drain pipes may be just so I could be sure I wouldn’t accidentally cut into one. Well since doing this, I realize that I must still be in a structural portion of the wall because while I did hit rebar, I don’t think I came down far enough and maybe too far to the left to actually find a pipe.
I started with the drain line area because it seemed to make sense to me logically due to where the owner said the point the water was draining to and figured if the waterfall fountains were off and the leak was likely not coming from them then perhaps the drain line was broken just above where the water would stop leaking. I know water takes a path of these resistance.I’m honestly baffled that water was seeping through this concrete wall because it is just absolutely solid.
I mentioned to the owner that I would come back and I thought the better option is to start at the bottom of the wall near where the pipes actually go up into the wall and where the most damage is, saw some of that out and then switch to a hammer drill w chisel but I wanted to get someones perspective on this who actually has experience on what I should do because I don’t know much of anything about how the plumbing works when encased in concrete.
On one picture I marked on the inside of the pool with a small red line about where I cut into the wall so you have a point of reference. I also circled in red area I think I should move to to cut instead.
The owner decided to take a chisel to the area. I had cut out so that’s why you see a hole there in the cut area but he said he just continued to hit concrete.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

What do you think you are looking for in opening up the gunite walls?

Schedule 40 PVC does not crack in the walls of a pool.

A glued joint may leak in Schedule 40 plumbing, but only an insane plumber puts a glued joint within the gunite walls.

If you have a leak it is often around a penetration in the wall - return pipes, skimmers, lights.

Or the leak is outside of the pool in the pipes that run from the shell to the equipment pad. Again, it's likely a bad glue joint.

I think you are damaging the pool with your surgery.

 

[kristim12]

Welcome to TFP.

What do you think you are looking for in opening up the gunite walls?

Schedule 40 PVC does not crack in the walls of a pool.

A glued joint may leak in Schedule 40 plumbing, but only an insane plumber puts a glued joint within the gunite walls.

If you have a leak it is often around a penetration in the wall - return pipes, skimmers, lights.

Or the leak is outside of the pool in the pipes that run from the shell to the equipment pad. Again, it's likely a bad glue joint.

I think you are damaging the pool with your surgery.

Thanks for your reply. I’m not entirely sure to be honest. The homeowner is at a loss for what to do, he wanted to open up the wall and see if we could “find” and “fix” the pipe. I asked him if he had the plumbing diagrams etc and he said no.
I don’t want him or I for that matter to cause further damage so that’s why I’m here.
I checked the light and it’s sealed off, there is a return jet there which the homeowner attempted to seal on his own in case that was the leak but it didn’t stop it.
The builder did install after the build was completed a spot to hold a volleyball net, it’s the top spot in the wall near where we cut. Inside that pipe seems to be some kind of plaster.
The owner says that the walls were literally “wet” as you can see in the images. If it’s coming from inside the pool how should we approach sealing or what method might you recommend? Are there seals inside the return jets that we could replace?

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for your reply. I’m not entirely sure to be honest. The homeowner is at a loss for what to do, he wanted to open up the wall and see if we could “find” and “fix” the pipe. I asked him if he had the plumbing diagrams etc and he said no.
I don’t want him or I for that matter to cause further damage so that’s why I’m here.

I don't mean to be harsh but you have no understanding of the materials used in gunite pools or how they are built. While we try to help folks with problems, you won't get an education on pool building here.

There are some long threads in Under Construction with pictures chronicling pool builds.

The original recommendation to put water in the pool and hire a leak detection service was the right path to follow.

You seem to think there is a different way of finding the problem. Asking lots of questions on an internet forum is not it.

I checked the light and it’s sealed off, there is a return jet there which the homeowner attempted to seal on his own in case that was the leak but it didn’t stop it.

Are there seals inside the return jets that we could replace?

Return jets are just schedule 40 pipe that is put through the pool walls before the gunite is shot. Do you know what schedule 40 pipe is? Have you ever handled it? Have you seen how thick the walls are? It is very difficult to crack and have a leak.

As I mentioned earlier, most leaks occur around penetrations in the pool structure.

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading describes many aspects of how a pool is built.

PVC Repair - Further Reading shows how pipes are put together.

The picture below shows a spa with many returns and how the area around the pipe is sealed before plaster.

So you have a solid PVC pipe sealed around it to the gunite.

What are you looking for with the returns?

The builder did install after the build was completed a spot to hold a volleyball net, it’s the top spot in the wall near where we cut. Inside that pipe seems to be some kind of plaster.

Where are pictures of that?

The owner says that the walls were literally “wet” as you can see in the images.

Gunite/shotcrete/concrete is not waterproof. It is the plaster in the pool that creates a waterproof shell.

Most pools leak a bit. Most pools are underground, and you don't see the moisture on the outside walls.

The pool shell will also wick ground moisture and create Efflorescence - Further Reading

If it’s coming from inside the pool how should we approach sealing or what method might you recommend?

First you have to find where the leak is before you can determine the proper method of sealing.

That is what leak detection companies do with the proper tools.

Trade in your drill and grinder for leak detection tools.

Anderson Manufacturing Company, Inc.

: Helping The Pool Professional Solve Leak Problems

www.leaktools.com

Find where the leaks are without damaging the structure, and then we can discuss methods to seal the leaks.

 

[kristim12]

I don't mean to be harsh but you have no understanding of the materials used in gunite pools or how they are built. While we try to help folks with problems, you won't get an education on pool building here.

There are some long threads in Under Construction with pictures chronicling pool builds.

The original recommendation to put water in the pool and hire a leak detection service was the right path to follow.

You seem to think there is a different way of finding the problem. Asking lots of questions on an internet forum is not it.






Return jets are just schedule 40 pipe that is put through the pool walls before the gunite is shot. Do you know what schedule 40 pipe is? Have you ever handled it? Have you seen how thick the walls are? It is very difficult to crack and have a leak.

As I mentioned earlier, most leaks occur around penetrations in the pool structure.

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading describes many aspects of how a pool is built.

PVC Repair - Further Reading shows how pipes are put together.

The picture below shows a spa with many returns and how the area around the pipe is sealed before plaster.

So you have a solid PVC pipe sealed around it to the gunite.

What are you looking for with the returns?



Where are pictures of that?



Gunite/shotcrete/concrete is not waterproof. It is the plaster in the pool that creates a waterproof shell.

Most pools leak a bit. Most pools are underground, and you don't see the moisture on the outside walls.

The pool shell will also wick ground moisture and create Efflorescence - Further Reading



First you have to find where the leak is before you can determine the proper method of sealing.

That is what leak detection companies do with the proper tools.

Trade in your drill and grinder for leak detection tools.

Anderson Manufacturing Company, Inc.

: Helping The Pool Professional Solve Leak Problems

www.leaktools.com

Find where the leaks are without damaging the structure, and then we can discuss methods to seal the leaks.

I appreciate the links and information you provided. Yes I do know what schedule 40 pipe is, though you are correct I don’t know anything about how pools are constructed other than what I’ve come across online.

I did pass your info to the homeowner and after some explaining was able to gather from him that he originally thought it was a bad seal somewhere as well which explains the caulking over some of the valves.

The pipe that was added for the net I think is a likely suspect since it was done after the fact and is on a bit of wall curve. I’d like to make a dam around it and use dye to check as I saw in some of the videos to see if it isn’t properly sealed there.

Here are images of the location of the fittings for the net and what the inside looks like.

Even though you seemed to begrudgingly respond to my post, I sincerely appreciate your time, thank you.

 

[ajw22]

Those fittings for the net do not go in deep enough to cause much of a leak .

The sides do need to be sealed to the plaster and you can see the white grout around one of them.

Packing more pool grout around them can ensure that is not a leak source.

 

[Bill1974]

Based on the amount of water leaking, that is a pretty substantial size leak. I would state with pressure testing the lines and eliminating ones that don't leak. A leak finding professional is you best bet for a finding the location. Once all the lines have testing positive for no leaks, then fill with water and look for additional leaks.

You may need to cut the exposed lines outside the pool to isolate which lines have leaks and to make testing easier.