Pool Fence Advice

[sbcpool]

I was getting a replaster quote from a local pool company who mentioned that our city has new pool fencing requirements that will have to be followed even for nothing but replaster. New fencing will cost between $2,000 and $4,000, which I don't have. I was thinking I'll just leave the pool as-is until it won't function any more and then demo it, but then it occurred to me that there might be some creative solutions on this site. Surely people have been faced with the prospect of new fencing requirements bankrupting a simple replaster?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Is there anyway to bring your current fencing into compliance? That would be your biggest challenge when dealing with the neighbor's side of the fence. You would need to comply with requirements for gates, windows and doors that provide access to the pool.

 

[sbcpool]

I would have to permanently disable access to my backyard from the front for anything wider than 4 feet. Even if I were willing to do that it would require removal of a tree and installing about 12 feet of wrought-iron fence.

 

[jonnyd91]

Do you have a picture of the area?

 

[NCMike]

Have you actually checked with the city about this? Is the pool company the one that gave you the fence quote? Where I'm from inspectors only get involved when doing something new. Replacing existing stuff like plaster or lights does not require a permit and therefore no inspection. Unless the city put a notice on your door or contacted you directly telling you to bring your fence up to code, I wouldn't put much faith into what the pool company is saying without verifying it yourself.

 

[sbcpool]

I called the city and they verified.

The final inspection shall not be called for until all enclosures, including the enclosure or other safety device required by Section 15.08.090, have been provided, and all electrical and plumbing work has been completed except for finish plastering. No pool shall receive a finish
coat of plaster until the above inspection has been made. Ord. 1829 § 4, 2008; Ord. 1827 § 4, 2007

One of the many joys of living in California. You can't even maintain your property in working condition without triggering thousands of dollars in government-mandated extra work. Then the politicians stand around scratching their heads about why it's so expensive to live here.

I don't have a picture handy. I'll try and get some when I'm done with work.

Thanks guys.

 

[Newdude]

I feel for you Sbc, but I have to agree with the town here. Being in a warm climate you probably have thousands and thousands of pools that predate the common sense laws that were *not* needed back when people still had common sense. Now it’s your fault that somebody else wasn’t watching their kid and said kid respects no boundaries with zero discipline.

 

[sbcpool]

The pool is fenced and cannot be access by children. The problem is that now you can't have a double gate and it has to swing out of the property and not into the property? I guess to make the latch easier for a kid on the outside to access? Who knows.

Out of curiosity I tried to find data on the number of drownings that occur in such a way that would be prevented by current regulations, but suprise! Nobody tracks that information. The interest doesn't lie in effective measures, it lies in being able to issue a press release claiming to have "done something."

 

[jonnyd91]

The pool is fenced and cannot be access by children. The problem is that now you can't have a double gate and it has to swing out of the property and not into the property? I guess to make the latch easier for a kid on the outside to access? Who knows.

Out of curiosity I tried to find data on the number of drownings that occur in such a way that would be prevented by current regulations, but suprise! Nobody tracks that information. The interest doesn't lie in effective measures, it lies in being able to issue a press release claiming to have "done something."

Can you just address the gate issue? I just installed an aluminum fence around my entire pool myself for 2300 in materials, it was 170 lf.
I cant imagine the gate costing 2k?

 

[sbcpool]

I can go that route, but that's the one that means permanently closing off access to by backyard by anything wider than 4 feet and removing a tree to accommodate putting the latch on the outside of the property for easier child access.

 

[jonnyd91]

I can go that route, but that's the one that means permanently closing off access to by backyard by anything wider than 4 feet and removing a tree to accommodate putting the latch on the outside of the property for easier child access.

The latch doesn't necessarily need to go on the outside, the gate just cant be pushed in to enter, you have to physically pull it out toward you. There are a few ways to install the latch on the inside while still being able to access it from the outside. Or you can get a latch that you pull straight up from the top (this can go in or out of the gate). Id have to see the tree to see what you are talking about. I think they also make 5 and 6 foot single gates if the double gate is the true issue.

 

[NCMike]

wow, I had no idea CA was that strict on permitting and inspections. My county has pretty much that same line in their code book but its for new installs only. We are free to perform maintenance on our property and replace like for like without additional permits. To me your doing regular maintenance on your property that they shouldn't even know about.

Id get multiple quotes from fence contractors to see who can come up with the best, most cost effective solution. Good luck!

 

[an1vrsy]

I completed my pool build city inspections this past February. You already mentioned that the pool in enclosed within a fenced in area with I'm sure approved entrance gates. Although, CA and NV city building dept (permits) are obviously different, I would review the requirements closely. Look for "or" statements. Check to see if your city utilizes the "2018 International Swimming Pool and Spa Code". If so, there maybe a section entitled "Secondary Access Barrier Requirements". Within that section, if your city uses it, that is where the "or" statements that precluded my build from many unnecessary requirements because I had an autocover, which for safety reasons is a horizontal fence.

 

[PoolGate]

Have you tried another contractor?

 

[sbcpool]

If so, there maybe a section entitled "Secondary Access Barrier Requirements". Within that section, if your city uses it, that is where the "or" statements that precluded my build from many unnecessary requirements because I had an autocover, which for safety reasons is a horizontal fence.

Unfortunately, my pool is irregular shape, so no pool cover for me. I've wished I could have one badly for years, but I can't see any way that isn't so much work that it would just remove all the fun of swimming just to get it off and back on.

I'm currently trying to figure out if the code really requires a permit just for replastering. It's surprisingly difficult to find out just what does and doesn't require a permit from somewhere other than some inspector's mouth.

 

[an1vrsy]

My intention wasn't to suggest you get a pool cover. What I wanted to impress upon you was that for you to use the "code" to find your particular situation and determine if you are getting the straight scoop or getting the run around. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

 

[NCMike]

Its amazing how informal such a formal process can be. When I was building my pool last summer/fall my pool builder would tell me something is required by code, the PB and I would disagree on how something should be done and he would finally try to say, "its gotta be done this way because of code". I always called my inspections department with the question and an inspector would call back and usually side with me.

When you call make sure you tell them you are REPLACING the plaster in your EXISTING pool. Don't use terms like "new" plaster or "remodeling" my pool or anything else that is usually associated with a permit. Your not trying to be unethical or get around the system, but if someone is answering you question that doesn't know about pools, they may use those context clues in your question and err on the safe side and say yes, apply for a permit.

 

[sbcpool]

Thank you to everyone. After much research, and despite what I was told by the City's Building Inspectors, I don't believe the requirements apply. The City cleverly hides parts of their municipal code from public online view, but I found the actual City Council records where they adopted the ordinance. The City's Building Department is adamant that the requirements apply to even replaster only, but the code itself says otherwise.

I'm not sure where to take that from here. The builder understandably doesn't want to Tick off the inspectors, but the inspectors are clearly wrong unless there's some more municipal code I don't know about. If there is, they are refusing to reference it. Not sure how to proceed. I don't think changing builders will help if the city is going to be this aggressive.

As I read it, ordinance 15.08.080 specifically says it applies only to construction of new pools. 15.08.070 only requires a pool to be enclosed by buildings, or fences or walls 5 to 6 feet in height as long as a 4-inch sphere cannot pass through said wall or fence.

That's it.

This is the full text of the adopted ordinance(s):

15.08.070 Perimeter swimming pool enclosures

A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this Code, all swimming pools shall be
entirely enclosed by buildings, or fences or walls not less than five nor more than six
feet in height. All such enclosures shall be so constructed as to prohibit the penetration
of a solid object that measures four inches in its least dimension. Hotels and motels
which offer a swimming pool as an accommodation to their guests shall be exempt
from the above enclosure requirement so long as they provide 24-hour surveillance of
the entire area of the pool constantly monitored by video viewer screen and an alarm
system covering the entire area of the pool, constantly monitored by an on-duty
employee required to be awake during the entire monitoring period. The operation of
the surveillance system and monitoring shall be subject to inspection at any time by
the city and in the event that the city manager at any time finds that the surveillance
and monitoring required fails to meet the standards set forth herein for the exemption,
this exemption shall be withdrawn upon a 10-day written notice and the enclosure
required shall be constructed.

B. Other than doors from a single-family home, all doors and/or gates opening
directly into the pool area shall be equipped with a self-closing, self-latching device
designed to keep the door or gate securely closed at times when not in use. The
latching device shall be located not less than 60 inches above the adjoining ground
level, walks or levels. A gate which services a driveway shall not qualify as meeting the
requirements of a self-closing gate. In no case shall any gate have a width greater than
four feet unless specifically approved by the administrative authority.

C. Doors, gates, latches, and all other portions of the above enclosures shall be
maintained in good condition and shall at all times provide the protection for which
they are intended.

D. During the course of construction, a swimming pool shall be filled with water until
such time as final inspection has been made and the work approved by the building
department. The final inspection shall not be called for until all enclosures, including
the enclosure or other safety device required by Section 15.08.090, have been
provided, and all electrical and plumbing work has been completed except for finish
plastering. No pool shall receive a finish coat of plaster until the above inspection has
been made.

15.08.080 Swimming pool safety features-Single-family homes

A. Applicability. In order to prevent child access to swimming pools, any construction
of a new swimming pool at a private single-family home shall comply with this section.

B. Definitions. The following words as used in this section shall have the following
meaning:

"Alarms" means devices that make audible, continuous alarm sounds when any
door or window that permits access from the residence to the pool area that is
without any intervening enclosure is opened or is left ajar. Alarms may be battery
operated or may be connected to the electrical wiring of the building.

"Approved safety pool cover" means a manually or power-operated safety pool
cover that meets all of the performance standards of the American Society for
Testing and Materials (ASTM) in compliance with standard F1346-91 as may be
amended from time to time.

"Building official" means the building official of the city or his or her designee.

"Enclosure" means a fence, wall, or other barrier that isolates a swimming pool
from access to the home.

"Public swimming pool" means a swimming pool operated for the use of the
general public with or without charge, or for the use of the members and guests of
a private club. Public swimming pool does not include a swimming pool located on
the grounds of a private single-family home.

"Swimming pool" or "pool" means any structure intended for swimming or
recreational bathing that contains water over 18 inches deep. Swimming pool or
pool includes in-ground and above-ground structures and includes, but it not
limited to, hot tubs, spas, portable spas and nonportable wading pool.

C. Whenever a construction permit is issued for construction of a new swimming pool
at a private, single-family home, it shall be equipped with at least one of the following
safety features:

1. The pool shall be isolated from access to a home by an enclosure that meets
the requirements of subsection E of this section;

2. If approved by the building official, one of the safety features set forth in
subsection (D)(1), (2), (3) or (4) of this section.

D. Whenever a construction permit is issued for construction of a new swimming pool
at a private, single-family home and where a wall of a Group R, Division 3 Occupancy
of dwelling unit serves as part of the barrier and contains door openings between the
dwelling unit and the outdoor swimming pool that provide direct access to the pool, an
enclosure meeting the requirements of subsection (C)( 1) of this section shall be
provided. If approved by the building official, one of the following safety features may
be substituted:

1. Self-closing and self-latching devices installed on all doors with direct access
to the pool with the release mechanism located a minimum of 60 inches (1372
mm) above the floor;

2. An alarm installed on all doors with direct access to the pool. The alarm shall
sound continuously for a minimum of 30 seconds within seven seconds after the
door and its screen, if present, are opened, and be capable of providing a sound
pressure level of not less than 85 dB(A) when measured indoors at 10 feet (3048
mm). The alarm shall automatically reset under all conditions. The alarm system
shall be equipped with a manual means, such as a touchpad or switch, to
temporarily deactivate the alarm for a single opening. Such deactivation shall last
no longer than 15 seconds. The deactivation switch shall be located at least 60
inches (1372 mm) above the threshold of the door;

3. An approved safety pool cover;

4. Other means of protection so long as the degree of protection afforded is not
less than that afforded by any of the devices described above.

E. An enclosure shall have all of the following characteristics:

1. Any access gates through the enclosure open away from the swimming pool,
and are self closing with a self-latching device placed no lower than 60 inches
above the ground located on pool side of barrier;

2. A minimum height of 60 inches and maximum height of 72 inches;

3. A maximum vertical clearance from the ground to the bottom of the enclosure
of two inches;

4. Gaps or voids, if any, do not allow passage of a sphere equal to or greater
than four inches in diameter;

5. An outside surface free of protrusions, cavities, or other physical
characteristics that would serve as handholds or foot holds that could enable a
child below the age of five years to climb over.

F. The requirements of this section shall not apply to any of the following:

1. Public swimming pools;

2. Hot tubs or spas with locking safety covers that comply with the American
Society for Testing Materials-Emergency Performance Specification (ASTM-ES
1389) as may be amended from time to time;

3. An apartment complex or any residential setting other than a single-family
home;

4. Any facility regulated by the State Department of Social Services even if the
facility is also used as the private residence of the operator. Pool safety in those
facilities shall be regulated pursuant to regulations adopted therefor by the State
Department of Social Services.

G. Doors, gates, latches, safety pool covers, enclosures, exit alarms or any other safety
device installed to prevent access to a swimming pool from the home, shall be
maintained in good condition and shall at all times provide the protection for which
they are intended.

H. Any person entering into an agreement to building a swimming pool shall give the
consumer notice of the requirements of this section."

 

[kevin76]

If it were me I'd probably get quotes from a couple more pool contractors. You may get some other perspectives and worse case you'd feel more confident that extra money really needs to be spent.

 

[revitup]

Why is a gate wider than 4’ an issue if it opens outward and locks?