Plaster color ruined

[jeremycrook]

Pool is almost exactly one year old. Build date was 9/1/16. Plaster was colored at the lowest possible color/darkness or a 1 is what the builder called it. So the issue is that the color was changing, as it was turning a lighter white color. The pictures are the best I could get after draining. I just want to try and understand what could have caused this? The plaster guy sat with me and he tried a few things to the plaster to try and get a change with no luck, he said he didn't know what caused it and offers no warranties. He poured MA in the tanning area and sanded a portion of the tanning area with no change. He took a test with strips and found that my levels were all in his "range" except the CL levels were ~7. I told him that was my target range during the peak of summer as I lose CL during the heat of the day, etc. He really didn't pay no mind to it when I was talking with him, however when he spoke to the builder he blamed the color change on me having a "elevated CL level" being off the charts. I spoke with the builder and told him about the TFP site and showed him some of the data in pool school and expected levels, etc.. He didn't go for it, and stated ~1.5 CL levels for personal pools and ~3 CL for public pools are what are usually done. The next day he did some research and found some of his colleagues in the business are running CL ~7 and that is normal these days, he called me and offered a re-plaster job for a minimal cost, or what it's going to cost him for materials and no labor rates. I agreed to this, however I am feeling dumbfounded as I followed the TFP specs to a tee. Any feedback is appreciated.

Startup procedure I did are as followed:

builder poured in one gallon MA after filled.
I placed pucks in skimmer baskets each week to maintain some CL.
waited 30 days post fill to add salt.
then after the 30 days I followed the TFP ways in getting TA in check, CYA, CL generator, lowered PH from 8 - ~7.2 each week.

 

[onBalance]

Click on this post below and it should answer some of your questions.

White Spotting of New Plaster Pools

 

[jeremycrook]

Click on this post below and it should answer some of your questions.

White Spotting of New Plaster Pools

Do you think I have a case for not having to pay for the new job? Ask the plaster guy if he did in fact use a form of Calcium in his mix?

 

[onBalance]

Some color pigments can be bleached by chlorine, and should not be used in plaster pools. But I don't think that is the problem with this plaster.
Discuss the issues in my "White Spotting" post with the contractor. Hopefully they will cooperate with you to resolve this.
Contact me if you continually get stonewalled.

 

[jeremycrook]

I had the pool re-plastered this weekend, I went with a white pool finish with no color. I worked with PB and got the job done with a little pushback but in the end I am happy. So I have been reading about all of the startup procedures and wanted to share what I was told to do, and if I need to adjust anything. I don't have my tap water results, I will try and get a set tonight.

The plaster guy told me to adjust the TA down to ~7-7.2 and maintain that for the first week. Add a puck to maintain some chlorine in the skimmer. No pool cleaner. Brush (didn't state frequency)

What I have done is when the pool was finished filling (sundae morning) I added a half quart of sequester, flipped on the filtration system, added ~1/2 gallon MA, and brushed for an hour. Took a pH test and adjusted and added a gallon to get the pH to ~7. It may have been around 6.8.

I did add a little CL out of a jug that I had, however it may have been <1/2 gallon. I just brushed as I added it. (I hope this didn't do anything) I also had a small floater from my hottub that I added a 6 small 1/2 pucks to maintain a little CL.

My plan is go home and brush the pool again, and drop pH ~7-7.2. Is this a good plan for startup? I was going to add CYA after the first week, and maintain pucks in the skimmers for the first month, then get salt ~3200 and add cleaner in after.

 

[onBalance]

Glad to hear that your PB was willing to make it right for you.
In my opinion, a pH of 7.0 is too low. But it is important to know what the tap water readings for alkalinity and calcium are.
Knowing that will help to know how best to proceed.

 

[jeremycrook]

Glad to hear that your PB was willing to make it right for you.
In my opinion, a pH of 7.0 is too low. But it is important to know what the tap water readings for alkalinity and calcium are.
Knowing that will help to know how best to proceed.

OK, I will take readings tonight for the pool. What pH level should I aim for if I need to lower it tonight while brushing?

Pool readings from tonight:

FC ~.5 - 1 (didn't read with drop test) (barely see any yellow with drop CL / pH tester)
pH 8+ this evening before I dropped it to ~7.4 (2.5 dixie cups) 32.2 MA
TA 50
CH 200
CYA 0

I added one CL puck this evening to skimmer.

 

[onBalance]

I suggest that you raise the alkalinity to above 100 ppm. That will help prevent the pH from rising faster than normal.
So add sodium bicarbonate.
Try to maintain the pH from 7.5 to to 7.8. By not lowering the pH all the way to 7.0 or 7.2 means that less acid will be used, and that will help from lowering the alkalinity too much.
After a couple of weeks, then lower the TA to where you want it.

Are you getting much plaster dust as you brush?

 

[jeremycrook]

I suggest that you raise the alkalinity to above 100 ppm. That will help prevent the pH from rising faster than normal.
So add sodium bicarbonate.
Try to maintain the pH from 7.5 to to 7.8. By not lowering the pH all the way to 7.0 or 7.2 means that less acid will be used, and that will help from lowering the alkalinity too much.
After a couple of weeks, then lower the TA to where you want it.

Are you getting much plaster dust as you brush?

The dust was gone within the first few hours after I kicked on the pumps on Sunday. I brushed thoroughly (twice) on Sunday. I brushed the entire pool again last night after I lowered the pH, but no dust was visible. I did have a few small chunks of plaster I found but I just think they fell into the pool. It's crystal clear.

I will not lower the pH as much today, or just drop it to 7.5. And I do have a big bag of Baking Soda, I will raise TA to ~100.

Should I continue to brush daily since I don't see much dust? And one more thing, should I try and lower pH once in the evening, or try and lower it in the mornings and then again in the evening?

 

[onBalance]

Yes, you should continue to brush. That is always important to do so.
You should test the pH every morning and evening for the first two weeks just to be sure that the pH isn't above 8.2 - 8.4.
But by raising the TA above 100 ppm, the pH should not rise to 8.2 or above so quickly.

 

[Rollercoastr]

But by raising the TA above 100 ppm, the pH should not rise to 8.2 or above so quickly.

I'm confused by that. What are the circumstances that will make pH rise more slowly with higher TA?

 

[jeremycrook]

I'm confused by that. What are the circumstances that will make pH rise more slowly with higher TA?

Now that you mentioned that I thought I read TA played a buffer on the pH, the higher the TA the quicker your pH would rise, this may be though after the curing process has finished.

I had this question earlier in the year when I added borates, and since my plaster wasn't finished curing it may have been a bad idea to add the borates as I couldn't get my TA to lower easily.

 

[onBalance]

Yes, for all established and existing pools, including non-plaster pools, it is true that a higher TA (of about 120 ppm as compared to 80 ppm) will result in a moderately faster pH rise from a pH of 7.4 to about 8.4 over several or more days.

However, for NEW plaster/cement pool situations, the pH can rise much faster and much higher than to a pH of just 8.4. In fact, the pH can rise to above 10.0 within just a few hours. This happens when calcium hydroxide is being dissolved off a new pool plaster surface and into pool water that does not contain enough alkalinity to buffer the pH effectively. Calcium hydroxide has a pH of about 12.0.

When the alkalinity is only around 50 ppm, as is the case with this pool water, the dissolved calcium hydroxide can raise the pH to 8.5 and higher within a few hours. That is why I suggested that the TA be raised to above 100 ppm. To be really effective at keeping the pH below 8.5, one would have to raise the TA even higher.

And unfortunately, there is a misunderstanding that calcium hydroxide automatically dissolves off a new plaster surface as part of the normal "curing process" of new plaster. That is a false concept. If the CSI (or LSI) is raised to about +0.5 for the first two weeks, calcium hydroxide dissolution (from the plaster surface) is significantly reduced.

It is this science that is the basis of the Bicarb Start-up program for new plaster pools.
A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members

 

[jeremycrook]

Yes, for all established and existing pools, including non-plaster pools, it is true that a higher TA (of about 120 ppm as compared to 80 ppm) will result in a moderately faster pH rise from a pH of 7.4 to about 8.4 over several or more days.

However, for NEW plaster/cement pool situations, the pH can rise much faster and much higher than to a pH of just 8.4. In fact, the pH can rise to above 10.0 within just a few hours. This happens when calcium hydroxide is being dissolved off a new pool plaster surface and into pool water that does not contain enough alkalinity to buffer the pH effectively. Calcium hydroxide has a pH of about 12.0.

When the alkalinity is only around 50 ppm, as is the case with this pool water, the dissolved calcium hydroxide can raise the pH to 8.5 and higher within a few hours. That is why I suggested that the TA be raised to above 100 ppm. To be really effective at keeping the pH below 8.5, one would have to raise the TA even higher.

And unfortunately, there is a misunderstanding that calcium hydroxide automatically dissolves off a new plaster surface as part of the normal "curing process" of new plaster. That is a false concept. If the CSI (or LSI) is raised to about +0.5 for the first two weeks, calcium hydroxide dissolution (from the plaster surface) is significantly reduced.

It is this science that is the basis and concept of the Bicarb Start-up program for new plaster pools.
A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members

Alright I think I am squared away now, the TA is at 110, and the pH is 7.4. I will check the pH again in the morning / each evening & adjust accordingly to to reduce to 7.4, I will do this for the next few weeks.

Do this for one full month? Should I worry about CYA anytime soon, or just wait until a month has past adding pucks? I am just keeping one puck in the skimmer until it dissolves, and then I will add another?

 

[PAGirl]

Yes, for all established and existing pools, including non-plaster pools, it is true that a higher TA (of about 120 ppm as compared to 80 ppm) will result in a moderately faster pH rise from a pH of 7.4 to about 8.4 over several or more days.

However, for NEW plaster/cement pool situations, the pH can rise much faster and much higher than to a pH of just 8.4. In fact, the pH can rise to above 10.0 within just a few hours. This happens when calcium hydroxide is being dissolved off a new pool plaster surface and into pool water that does not contain enough alkalinity to buffer the pH effectively. Calcium hydroxide has a pH of about 12.0.

When the alkalinity is only around 50 ppm, as is the case with this pool water, the dissolved calcium hydroxide can raise the pH to 8.5 and higher within a few hours. That is why I suggested that the TA be raised to above 100 ppm. To be really effective at keeping the pH below 8.5, one would have to raise the TA even higher.

And unfortunately, there is a misunderstanding that calcium hydroxide automatically dissolves off a new plaster surface as part of the normal "curing process" of new plaster. That is a false concept. If the CSI (or LSI) is raised to about +0.5 for the first two weeks, calcium hydroxide dissolution (from the plaster surface) is significantly reduced.

It is this science that is the basis and concept of the Bicarb Start-up program for new plaster pools.
A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members

Interesting to know, thank you for the explanation!

 

[onBalance]

Jeremy, as you proceed, you will learn how often you will need to test the pH of water and make adjustments. Don't be overly insistent on getting the pH down to 7.4.
And as you add acid, be sure to check the TA and keep it above 100 ppm for a few weeks.
As for CYA, I don't know the TFP policy, but I believe that after a few days, you can begin to slowly adding CYA if you want to. CYA doesn't dissolve very easily, so watch that.
Do not let CYA settle on the plaster surface.
You can also start swimming in the pool now! And make sure there is always some chlorine in the water.

 

[pooldv]

Yes, fine to add CYA now. Be sure to use a sock or some knee highs. More here, Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

 

[jeremycrook]

Jeremy, as you proceed, you will learn how often you will need to test the pH of water and make adjustments. Don't be overly insistent on getting the pH down to 7.4.
And as you add acid, be sure to check the TA and keep it above 100 ppm for a few weeks.
As for CYA, I don't know the TFP policy, but I believe that after a few days, you can begin to slowly adding CYA if you want to. CYA doesn't dissolve very easily, so watch that.
Do not let CYA settle on the plaster surface.
You can also start swimming in the pool now! And make sure there is always some chlorine in the water.

Thank you, I will watch both and hopefully the TA will slow the rise of pH enough to avoid testing at 5am.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, fine to add CYA now. Be sure to use a sock or some knee highs. More here, Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

Thanks, I will add some to a sock and put it in the skimmer.