Planning SWG install, need advice

[reggiehammond]

Tex,

This installation looks fine to me. I assume you're planning to have the PB or authorized rep do it for you. If not, and you plan to DIY it make sure you read the fine print on warranty which will mean you don't have one after a very short period of time.

Chris

The OP misread this - setsailsoon was referring to the Pentair DIY warranty penalty for the actual cell. It’s very DIY unfriendly, but as you’ve found out, a Labrador retriever could install these things. It’s not hard.

 

[setsailsoon]

The OP misread this - setsailsoon was referring to the Pentair DIY warranty penalty for the actual cell. It’s very DIY unfriendly, but as you’ve found out, a Labrador retriever could install these things. It’s not hard.

Reggie,

Thanks for catching this. Yes, my point was if you ever do this again please consider a 3rd party that has great warranty and does that for DIY or professional install. Circupool was a great choice for me in this regard. There are others.

Chris

 

[TexEdmond]

Yes, my point was if you ever do this again please consider a 3rd party that has great warranty and does that for DIY or professional install.

Can you help me understand this better? Everything on my pool is Pentair. Are you saying buy the salt cell from a 3rd party with a great warranty, or go with something like a circupool salt cell? I wouldn't expect those units to talk back to my EasyTouch brains, and therefore would be harder to adjust / take readings, but I may be wrong, that communication / control protocol might be pretty universal.

 

[setsailsoon]

Having a Pentair automation definitely gives you additional capability and in your case you've already purchased the Pentair cell so it isn't really relevant until you have to purchase again. For me I had Pentair Intellicenter automation and I'll have that for my next pool that's currently being designed. If you're buying a new automation system you can also save some money by purchasing the power center that is included as a bundle. But for me the additional control from an integrated system doesn't really buy you much in practice. What I found is I manually set % power and runtime using Pool Math and I had the settings locked in pretty quick. Then all I had to adjust is runtime which can be done with any swg brand and any automation system. Several experts on here recommend not chasing FC settings with swg systems and I've found I can let mine swing within targets very easily and sometimes a bit higher with only one or two runtime adjustments per season. I can make that adjustment with my remote and even on my 3rd year I didn't touch % power after my initial setting of 40% So in my case I was able to get a full warranty and the automation control I needed with a 3rd party and very reputable Circupool system for a little less cost. This is an alternative that people should consider then make their own decision based on their presences. I hope this helps to clarify my post.

Chris

 

[TexEdmond]

Definitely, makes total sense. Thanks for clarifying!

If you're buying a new automation system you can also save some money by purchasing the power center that is included as a bundle.

I saw that and was envious. Fortunately the previous owners allowed themselves to be talked into an ozonator, so I just reused the whip and wiring, including ground for mine. Saved me a little in materials and a whole lot of hassle removing a knockout and worrying about masonry anchors, etc.

What I found is I manually set % power and runtime using Pool Math and I had the settings locked in pretty quick.

This makes total sense. I've read a few posts saying, "Prepare to be excruciatingly bored with your new system." I'm also starting to go in and recalculate runtimes and i'm getting away from the old rpm and automation programs that we inherited.

 

[reggiehammond]

Can you help me understand this better? Everything on my pool is Pentair. Are you saying buy the salt cell from a 3rd party with a great warranty, or go with something like a circupool salt cell? I wouldn't expect those units to talk back to my EasyTouch brains, and therefore would be harder to adjust / take readings, but I may be wrong, that communication / control protocol might be pretty universal.

On the one hand, Pentair is a good choice because it folds right into your existing system.
What you're missing is that by installing it yourself, you get almost no warranty from Pentair on the actual SWCG.

Another company, like Circupool, may have a much longer warranty on the actual SWCG because they don't penalize you like Pentair does..

 

[needsajet]

Great work. It's looking good and you'll know exactly how it all works.

If it were mine, I'd put a check valve before the puck feeder (inline chlorinator) to protect the SWCG cell. The spring would hold it closed on the pipe that flows down toward the puck feeder, but I'd actually put it above the SWCG cell so water helps hold it closed when flow is off.

 

[TexEdmond]

Thanks. I really appreciate your feedback on this, it definitely helped me think things through and come up with the solution that worked best for me. Bragging on you to a pool owner pal of mine in Seattle, but he's from Perth originally.

If it were mine, I'd put a check valve before the puck feeder (inline chlorinator) to protect the SWCG cell.

Fair. I do have the heater bypass open just a few clicks in order to keep the SCG from going into low-flow mode when the pool pump is in its normal lower RPM state. If I kept it closed, I don't see the benefit, as the lower check valve that protects the heater would be redundant. Looking at the backflow possibilities thru the tiny opening in the heater bypass, there's just not anywhere in particular I can see the puck water backwashing to, especially back up and over that rise... It can't go into to the heater input because the check valve on the other side is being held closed by the column of water above it. It can't go back into the filter for the same reason, there's an even taller column of water there. The only way water would drain would be down into the return piping.

I plan to further mitigate this by running my tab soaker until it empties itself, leave it empty 99% of the time and only putting a tab or two a time in there in the future if it needs something. Maybe I'll rinse it out real good too when it goes dry to try to dilute some of that acidity.

 

[needsajet]

Sorry, I may have missed that you plan to run your pump 24/7, and nothing at all wrong with that approach if affordable.

When the system is off, the acidity created by trichlor pucks will affect the surrounding water. A check valve is used to prevent it diffusing in the direction of anything that might get corroded by acidity, such as the SWCG cell plates or heater. This is why you will always see a check valve before a puck feeder in pool plumbing diagrams. After the puck feeder, it's all plastic pipe, so no harm. Acidity is merely a preponderance of H+ ions, which diffuse through water very quickly.

I believe in your picture, the heater is protected by the check valve on the bypass line. If you leave the bypass valve cracked though, the protection from acidic water would be disabled.

And yes, if using the puck feeder as you describe there would be no risk. I guess I tend toward doing it for the long term, including maybe using pucks for winter, or if I choose to run the pump less than 24/7.

By the way, I totally respect your decisions; you're thinking it all through very well. I'm just sharing what I see in case it's helpful.

 

[TexEdmond]

When the system is off, the acidity created by trichlor pucks will affect the surrounding water. A check valve is used to prevent it diffusing in the direction of anything that might get corroded by acidity, such as the SWCG cell plates or heater. This is why you will always see a check valve before a puck feeder in pool plumbing diagrams. After the puck feeder, it's all plastic pipe, so no harm. Acidity is merely a preponderance of H+ ions, which diffuse through water very quickly.

Thanks for helping me understand better. I was thinking of this as a water backflow / siphon issue, and was unaware that acidity can move quickly through stagnant water. Of course it's worth $50 for another check valve to protect a $1800 SWCG. Your point about the bypass valve exposing the inlet of the heater to acid damage is well taken, and I was able to adjust my pump RPM last night to keep that valve closed and still maintain SWG function on my lowest RPM setting. The only other thought that occurred to me was in the previous plumbing setup, the heater bypass was often partially open, allowing pesky hydrogen to flow out the bypass tee, back thru the valve, and into the heater inlet just the same. I haven't gotten the courage to stick an inspection camera into my heater coils yet, but it... still works. Honestly with as poorly as some things were maintained on this pool for its first two seasons, I'd think the heater might need a little bit of scale removal anyway (sarcasm)... I understand this is a similar argument to "Welp, I've been smoking 40 years and it hasn't killed me yet!"

I would like to try to get the pump to where it's not running 24/7 and still have a clean pool. Summertime gets expensive with two ACs and a well pump and a septic aerator that runs 24/7. Oh and my shop A/C.

I heard you mention preferring a vertical, upflow orientation, which would require redoing quite a bit of plumbing and a taller "stack." Wouldn't the spring hold the valve shut good enough with no water flowing and I could put it in a downward position in the other pipe? Or is there something about those valves that require a horizontal or upflow installation?

 

[TexEdmond]

By the way, I got a good chuckle out of two main contributors to this thread: "needsajet" and "setsailsoon." I am so busy working on the dang pool (which is a hole in the ground where one puts one's money), I don't have enough time to even consider flying (which is a hole in the sky where one puts one's money) or boating (which is a hole in the water....)

 

[Summoner12]

Tex,

How do you like that sediment filter on top of the pump? Does it work?

My local pool store has a few and the owner said he'd hook me up.... this tells me he's not selling them very often LOL. I don't know enough about them... my biggest concern is, do they restrict flow... I am all about gentle turns and bends. I am planning on a redo of my pool pad. My pump has 3 90's before it and 4 after it, just to come up out of the ground and into the pump (a 90* turn... three 90's) and then a 90* turn into the filter (4 elbows)...... I am planning to add a gas heater, plumbing for solar heater and a SWCG. I need to find those elbows they used on your pool. I like to use the 45* fittings... but maybe I can find those sweeping elbows.

 

[needsajet]

The spring is just meant for holding the check valve closed, not for holding water back. Jandy's installation advice says upward flow only when installed vertical. I think it will fit with only a few inches added. Might need two slip couplings on the downward leg to lengthen

 

[TexEdmond]

How do you like that sediment filter on top of the pump?

It's a flippin' lifesaver, especially in the fall / winter when a lot of dirt is blowing around. I relied on our floor cleaner system exclusively before we bought our pool robot. There's a lot of farmland around our neighborhood. Anything I can do to keep the cartridges clean...

Does it work?

Absolutely yes indeed. It works very similarly to a cyclone dust collector in a woodshop, but there's 16 little channels that spin the dirt down. I did suspect the top end was restricting flow somewhat when we bought the house, so I took it apart and hosed it out really well because there was a lot of dirt and debris in the cyclone channels, plus an inch or so of sediment had solidified on the bottom and wouldn't flush out normally. Fascinating design. Every few days I'll open the purge valve and drain off whatever sand and silt it's collected.

After cleaning it out and reinstalling it, and after spending more time with the pool overall where I can pay attention to things, I'd say the heater is the single most restrictive thing in my plumbing right now. I read an article here on the 90 vs 45 vs sweeping 90 pool bends, and the folks who are much smarter than me basically said that doesn't matter so much... the difference in pressure loss thru a dual 45 versus a 90 or a swept 90 was pretty negligible. Lots of posts saying there's a huge advantage to changing from 1.5" to 2" plumbing.

I saw some specific pool rated 90 degree bends at Lowe's the other day. The photo looks different than the part I got; the ones in the store are identical to the ones on my current plumbing.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/LASCO-3-in-x-3-in-x-2-in-dia-Elbow-PVC-Fitting/1000571683

These guys were pretty neat too, saved me on the quick turn I had to make going into that new heater bypass valve.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/LASCO-2-in-x-2-in-x-2-in-dia-Slip-Elbow-PVC-Fitting/3426588

I'd say if you're not in a particularly dusty part of the world, (wife's got family in OC, doesn't seem overly dusty, but i dunno...) you could probably get by without one, unless you were already noticing a lot of dirt clogging your filters.

 

[TexEdmond]

The spring is just meant for holding the check valve closed, not for holding water back. Jandy's installation advice says upward flow only when installed vertical. I think it will fit with only a few inches added. Might need two slip couplings on the downward leg to lengthen

Ahh, but if I install a valve that matches the one below, I'd be buying the Magic Plastic CR2 valve that can be installed in any orientation, according to their website! Ordered and arriving Wednesday.

 

[needsajet]

I read an article here on the 90 vs 45 vs sweeping 90 pool bends, and the folks who are much smarter than me basically said that doesn't matter so much... the difference in pressure loss thru a dual 45 versus a 90 or a swept 90 was pretty negligible. Lots of posts saying there's a huge advantage to changing from 1.5" to 2" plumbing.

Exactly right

Yes, substantial gain from upping the diameter of everything, so going all 2" instead of 1.5" great move. Regular 90s are fine, and a bit easier/quicker to measure and fit. The only time I use 45s is if I can reduce length or improve access after it's built, and for matching up to pipe at odd angles.

I was convinced on sweep 90s around the time we built our current pool. Interestingly, the ones I was able to get have narrower inside diameter through the sweep than normal 2" pipe, which was a disappointment. Makes it look very tidy and all, but I wouldn't do it again.

 

[needsajet]

Ahh, but if I install a valve that matches the one below, I'd be buying the Magic Plastic CR2 valve that can be installed in any orientation, according to their website! Ordered and arriving Wednesday.

Excellent!!

I will suppress my Jandy valve snobbery, haha

 

[TexEdmond]

Excellent!!

I will suppress my Jandy valve snobbery, haha

My pool has a few of those too. Apparently the PB liked to spread the wealth around ...