Phosphates - 100 acre peanut field

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JamesW,

I did not state Chlorine will do "anything" to nitrates I simply stated that they can be "controlled" by higher levels of chlorine. Perhaps you misread what I wrote. But I am not sure what is meant, by you, in regards to the all encompassing word "anything".

The only way to remove nitrates completely would be to drain the pool, not a viable option here unless one were to do it every time they sprayed.

There is another option that is more complicated, the administrators of this site have requested of me not to discuss it, as it is both more complicated, and somewhat confusing to "Newbies". I will honor that request, and I think their decision wise. Also it too would be a waste of time as this spraying is ongoing.

If shocking and then maintaining higher levels of chlorine does not work, as stated in my post, the best solution would be a full water analysis by the agricultural extension of the state or municipality, to determine what might be going on.

The ingredients of the spray used are listed in the MSDS, it is "Chlorothalonil", this spray is clearly mentioned in a prior post as the spray chemical "Bravo", if "Googled", it "Bravo" is mentioned in my post and another posters.

Additionally there are a number of scientific papers mostly regarding the increase in nitrates if "Googled", in respect to this spray.

The other spray ingredient that might have been used has not been listed by Michelle W. At the present time no information can be determined.

The fungicide solution "Bravo", does not contain copper if the MSDS is "Googled" .

Reading through all the posts might possibly have made you aware of this chemical's presence and its ingredients. Although I would agree that the various posts are somewhat confusing, unless extra time had been taken to read slowly through the posts over a day, or so. And time taken to "Google" them.

Copper is an algaecide, and I can see your thinking that too much copper may have turned the pool green , but based on numerous "Googled" papers the more likely cause is, as stated in these papers, is increasing nitrates leading to algae.

Maybe you might be correct we will have to see. But more careful research lays the problem at the feet of increased nitrates leading to a slow algae bloom, although slow careful research does not always produce the correct answer.
 
Since the chlorination of ammonia (and probably urea) results in significant amounts of nitrate, there will usually be nitrates in swimming pools. One should think of nitrates the same way one thinks of phosphates -- both are limiting algae nutrients, but algae growth is ultimately limited by sunlight and temperature regardless of both nitrate and phosphate levels. By the way, algae needs both phosphates and nitrates to be able to grow so limiting only one of the two is sufficient to slow down such growth, though of course it's not necessary since chlorine can control algae on its own.

If you maintain the appropriate minimum FC for the CYA level, then you could dump fertilizer with both nitrates and phosphates into the pool and the chlorine will still kill algae faster than it can grow. If the FC/CYA level was appropriate when the spraying was done, then the problem lies elsewhere.
 
smallpooldad, I apologize if my post seemed rude or disrespectful. I did not intend to be. And, I probably misunderstood what you were trying to say. I should have written a better post.

I think that you mean that algae can be controlled in the presence of nitrates, not that nitrates can be controlled.

Copper is sometimes used as a fungicide, and I was thinking that copper might have been mixed into the spray solution.

I don't think that there are any nitrate compounds in Bravo, but there might be nitrate compounds mixed into the spray solution.

In a properly chlorinated pool, the addition of nitrate or phosphate should not cause a pool to develop algae. The poster says that the FC was sufficient.
 
JamesW,

Thank you for the apology. And yes no question my post could have been clearer, fortunately Michelle W did understand what I was trying to get at. We will have to wait until Michelle W has done a shock treatment to see if mitigating the nitrates was successful, and as chem geek mentioned phosphates.

As regards the nitrate build-up, the papers which can be found by "Googling" "Chlorothalonil Algae", do not state why the nitrates in water increase when "Chlorothalonil" aka "Bravo" is used, although they state they do increase. This product does contain Nitrogen in its formula 2,4,5,6-tetrachloroisophthalonitrile.

Because "Bravo" is a fungicide, and not a fertilizer, it could also be, as chem geek alluded to, that it is not the "Bravo" that is causing the problem but a fertilizer that is being used that might be running off, or blown into the pool, slowly but surely after each treatment. Despite relatively high Free Chlorine, the Combined Chlorine number of 3.5 (if Michelle W was doing the test correctly), was extraordinarily high for a FC of 8.5, and might be indicative of problem water particularly with respect to algae formation. The high FC of 8.5 might have kept it in check for some time, as the CC grew over time.

This growing CC number could have been caused by a combination of both the "Bravo" and a fertilizer treatment over a period of time, as the growing season for peanuts progresses. Many persons never check for the CC number, and only do the first FC Total Chlorine test, skipping the other, until an issue arises, This could also have happened here, Michelle W is that possible?

Copper as you mentioned might also be an issue if other sprays, or additions to sprays, are used. A simple inexpensive aquarium copper test kit might be a good idea; if the shock does not work it might indeed be that. If it is not Copper then a sample of the water sent to the agricultural lab might be the best line of attack to determine what is causing the issue.

It seems that a cover for the pool might also prevent, or lessen, this problem in future.

In any event we will have to wait for Michelle W to respond when the shocking process is finished, it might take a few days or more than a week. The mystery continues.

Two heads are better than one; so I thank you for making me think this issue through even further.
 
Michelle W,

My apologies for this late post but chem geek's mention of ammonia sparked something in my tiny grey matter, in that I recollected some fertilizers contain above normal amounts of ammonia.

Unfortunately there is a very, very, faint outside chance your problem may be related to ammonia. I repeat the chance is faint but possible.

It is very rare for pools to have an ammonia issue, however it is possible in your case as increased amounts of ammonia are added to some peanut fertilizers to increase crop yields .

Significantly more chlorine is required to rid a pool of ammonia than even the amount needed in a high shock process. Below is link to a post by chem geek on how to determine the amount of chlorine required to get rid of it. It can be a large amount of chlorine depending on the amount of ammonia.

Firstly it would be a good idea to purchase an inexpensive aquarium ammonia test. If ammonia is present then chem geek's instruction should solve your issue.

Caveat: The only known simple solution to removing ammonia is the use of chlorine in a swimming pool. If anyone suggests another method it would be best to check with chem geek first, to get his OK .

Link (see bottom of page):

http://www.troublefreepool.com/ammonia-calculator-t23684.html

I sincerely hope this is note the case.
 
Test results tonight 7-20
Ph 8.2
FC 15
CC .5
TA 120
CH 210
CYA 40

Started shock last night.cleaned filter twice today. Particles falling out, vacuuming.running filter continually. Water looks healthier today. Still a work in progress.

Copper is added in spray tank as a minor element application, drift was noticeable from field during last spray...I can get a water sample tested at the Ag lab, will send it off Monday.
 
Getting the pH down would probably help. The pH might be reading a false high due to the FC being over 10 ppm. However, with your past pH reading and your TA, I think that it is probably elevated and you would be safe lowering it a bit.

Adding a sequestrant might be helpful, but you should probably wait until you are done slamming (shocking).

If this is due to copper, then it might be better to stop slamming (shocking), allow the FC and pH to come down and then add the sequestrant.

If you think that this not due to copper, then it would probably be best to continue slamming (shocking).
 
Michelle W,

Good to read the pool is improving.

If the water already looks healthier then you do not need to worry about ammonia.

If you test your tap water's pH and chlorine, it might be possible to give you the true pH (but only if the tap water has a low pH - ideally 7.2 to 7.4), and chlorine readings for your pool.

If the copper is high you might get some staining, so a sequestrant might be needed, but if it is not too high you will not need the sequestrant. You need the lab results to make a decision.

A recommended sequestrant of this forum, a member of the HEDP family of sequestrants, is "The Blue Stuff" from Jack's Magic, it states/claims it actually removes copper from the water. It will also work with high levels of chlorine which is probably where you will need to keep your pool in the future for maintenance purposes.

If you want to continue shocking it might be a good idea, for insurance against staining, to add one 32 oz bottle of "The Blue Stuff" per 10,000 gallons, to avoid staining as you do not know the level of copper.

Let us know the tap water's pH and chlorine readings, I might be able to give you a simple formula for true readings.

A good level to keep the pH if you do have metal issues is below 7.4, say 7.3.

Thank you.
 
News. So based on last recommendations...I slowly lowered pH and have kept chlorine just below shock level...kept pump on and vac going daily. PROGRESS! Water is clear, bottom is blue, still vacuuming fallout...thanks to all for your help. Will let you know how it goes after next field spray.
 

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