My solar heater is new this year and I'd like to turn it off for the months I won't be using it, but I'm not sure what to do. The company who installed it said they'd come twice a year to shut down and start up but now I can't contact them. Is this something I can do or should I find another solar installer to come do it for me? Is that a common request or do most homeowners do it themselves? I don't want to get on my roof if possible. When the solar was first installed when it would turn off for the day we'd hear a lot of gurgling and loud noises in our house for literally 2-3 hours from the solar plumbing (water being released slowly from the roof), then there was a leak on the roof from the solar panels and the installer came back and repaired it - he said a valve gasket blew. Since then, we never hear the gurgling. I'm wondering if he removed something and the water is draining out faster? Maybe I don't have to worry about water trapped on the roof now and freezing in the winter/damaging the solar panels/pvc. Are there instructions or a checklist on how to winterize your solar heater? Or simply turn it off at the panel? Thanks in advance.
Pentair solar heater - how to shut off for winter
- Thread starter BB_Sacramento
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2013
- 66,119
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If you have the correct solar diverter valve your panels should automatically drain when off.
You can physically disconnect the actuator so water cannot be sent up to your panels or you can turn it off in whatever panel you have.
@Dirk what do you do?
You can physically disconnect the actuator so water cannot be sent up to your panels or you can turn it off in whatever panel you have.
@Dirk what do you do?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,682
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
The gurgling sound you used to hear was air "gulping" into your solar panels to relieve the vacuum which allows the water to drain out into your pool. If you no longer hear the gurgling, then either your repair guy replaced the one you had with a much quieter one (which would be fine, if there was such a thing, I wouldn't know); or he removed it, which would be bad. That seems unlikely, since that would be grossly incompetent, but I suppose it's possible. The first thing to determine is if you have a VRV (vacuum relief valve) somewhere in your solar heating plumbing system. You can google what the various types look like, or shout if you need some help with that.
Since you once heard the gurgling, that means your panel plumbing will drain if properly configured. If not, then it's possible only some or none of the roof-top pipes are draining. The next thing to determine (after finding or installing a VRV) is if you have a solar drain-down valve. Do you know which valve engages your solar panels? The sure-fire way to determine if you have the correct valve, is to disassemble that solar valve and look. The valve's internal diverter will have either a one-way valve in it, or a manually drilled hole in it. It'll look something like this:
Hopefully it's there, if not, we'll cross that bridge.
If you have both of those components, then third is to observe the feed and return plumbing pipes. Are they both all above the level of the solar valve? If so, then if you have the two components referred to above, your panels and rooftop plumbing should drain completely all on their own. This is assuming the panels and the plumbing up top don't trap any water. It would depend on if they were installed correctly or not. You can just look at them and use some physics logic to see if they'll drain (water runs downhill!).
If any parts of your feed or return pipes dip below the level of the solar valve, or the level of the pool (mine go underground for a bit), then they could trap water. You might have to blow those out, as even if you don't winterize your other pool plumbing, when the freeze mode of your pump kicks in, to protect the water in your pipes from freezing, that water won't flow through the solar plumbing. So it could freeze if it got cold enough.
That's the short version. First steps are to determine if you have a proper VRV and a drain-down solar valve and if your plumbing will drain completely. You can post some pics of your rooftop array and the pad and the solar valve and plumbing, etc, and we can weigh in.
Since you once heard the gurgling, that means your panel plumbing will drain if properly configured. If not, then it's possible only some or none of the roof-top pipes are draining. The next thing to determine (after finding or installing a VRV) is if you have a solar drain-down valve. Do you know which valve engages your solar panels? The sure-fire way to determine if you have the correct valve, is to disassemble that solar valve and look. The valve's internal diverter will have either a one-way valve in it, or a manually drilled hole in it. It'll look something like this:
Hopefully it's there, if not, we'll cross that bridge.
If you have both of those components, then third is to observe the feed and return plumbing pipes. Are they both all above the level of the solar valve? If so, then if you have the two components referred to above, your panels and rooftop plumbing should drain completely all on their own. This is assuming the panels and the plumbing up top don't trap any water. It would depend on if they were installed correctly or not. You can just look at them and use some physics logic to see if they'll drain (water runs downhill!).
If any parts of your feed or return pipes dip below the level of the solar valve, or the level of the pool (mine go underground for a bit), then they could trap water. You might have to blow those out, as even if you don't winterize your other pool plumbing, when the freeze mode of your pump kicks in, to protect the water in your pipes from freezing, that water won't flow through the solar plumbing. So it could freeze if it got cold enough.
That's the short version. First steps are to determine if you have a proper VRV and a drain-down solar valve and if your plumbing will drain completely. You can post some pics of your rooftop array and the pad and the solar valve and plumbing, etc, and we can weigh in.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,682
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
OK, looks good. Your panels look like they will drain well enough. There will likely be some water left in the lower manifold on the roof, but probably not enough to cause any damage should it freeze.
And the feed and return pipes lead directly to the valve and pad, not under it, so they will drain well enough, too.
That pictured component looks to be your VRV. Like yours used to be, mine is quite noisy, so there is no wondering if it's doing it's thing. If there is a style that makes no noise at all, I'm just not aware of it. But I expect one as high in the system as yours might not make any noise at all, because it doesn't have to gulp (mine is much lower, under the eves actually). It could be that the repair guy moved it up higher than it was. Mark would know. @mas985, would a VRV mounted at the top point of a solar system be quiet while it passed air?
So that just leaves the solar valve question. That part with the Hayward label is the actuator, not the valve. The valve body is underneath. That's where the drain-down diverter would be. Do you see any part numbers on the valve body? If not, you can remove the handle to reveal four (maybe six or eight) machine screws. Just unscrew those, lift the actuator off, and you'll see the diverter inside the body. That step is likely unnecessary. You look to have a very standard installation, and I'd be surprised if you didn't have a drain-down valve. But if you're feeling handy, you can peek inside the valve to be sure.
So if the VRV is working, and the drain-down diverter is in place, then all you have to do to get ready for winter is to shut down the SolarTouch controller so that the solar heating doesn't engage. The panels will drain for the last time, and any freezing that occurs shouldn't cause any damage to the panels or the manifolds or the plumbing.
I should add, that's what I do here in Central California. It doesn't freeze long enough to create any issues for my pool or solar plumbing. You'll have to determine if Sac would require more extensive winterizing.
You should be aware that the SolarTouch controller does have a freeze protection mode, and will circulate water through your solar panels if it gets cold enough (below 40°). The SolarTouch would start up your pump and turn your solar valve. That might make more sense than shutting down the system completely. I don't do that here, again, that'd be something for you to decide based on your winter temps. Page 22:
There will likely be a setting to activate or defeat the freeze protection You'll need to figure that out. If you can't (or if there is no way to defeat it), then you could always defeat the solar valve via it's manual switch. More on that later if it comes to that.
Note that if you do decide to use the freeze protection of SolarTouch, it would not be active in a power failure. So theoretically, you could find yourself in a situation where the freeze protection mode filled your panels, but then the power goes out and the pump stops and the panels will be full of water. Maybe they'd drain before that water froze, maybe they wouldn't. Anywho, that's one reason I don't allow freeze protection to pump water through my panels in the winter. I just drain it and then shut down the solar heating schedule. Because my pipes go below my solar valve, I have two drain valves just above the ground that flush out the last bit of above-ground water. Some water stays underground, but I live in an area with a near-zero frost line, so some water underground is fine. But that's not an issue for your setup.
I'm just basing all this on my limited experience. If you want to be more sure of how your system works, you don't have to track down the original installer. Your system is pretty standard, and just about any local solar installer can take a look. Just hire them for a service call, and they can determine all that I've described, and what is best in your Sacramento area (they'd know). And if winterizing is required, they could do it, or teach you how to do it.
And the feed and return pipes lead directly to the valve and pad, not under it, so they will drain well enough, too.
That pictured component looks to be your VRV. Like yours used to be, mine is quite noisy, so there is no wondering if it's doing it's thing. If there is a style that makes no noise at all, I'm just not aware of it. But I expect one as high in the system as yours might not make any noise at all, because it doesn't have to gulp (mine is much lower, under the eves actually). It could be that the repair guy moved it up higher than it was. Mark would know. @mas985, would a VRV mounted at the top point of a solar system be quiet while it passed air?
So that just leaves the solar valve question. That part with the Hayward label is the actuator, not the valve. The valve body is underneath. That's where the drain-down diverter would be. Do you see any part numbers on the valve body? If not, you can remove the handle to reveal four (maybe six or eight) machine screws. Just unscrew those, lift the actuator off, and you'll see the diverter inside the body. That step is likely unnecessary. You look to have a very standard installation, and I'd be surprised if you didn't have a drain-down valve. But if you're feeling handy, you can peek inside the valve to be sure.
So if the VRV is working, and the drain-down diverter is in place, then all you have to do to get ready for winter is to shut down the SolarTouch controller so that the solar heating doesn't engage. The panels will drain for the last time, and any freezing that occurs shouldn't cause any damage to the panels or the manifolds or the plumbing.
I should add, that's what I do here in Central California. It doesn't freeze long enough to create any issues for my pool or solar plumbing. You'll have to determine if Sac would require more extensive winterizing.
You should be aware that the SolarTouch controller does have a freeze protection mode, and will circulate water through your solar panels if it gets cold enough (below 40°). The SolarTouch would start up your pump and turn your solar valve. That might make more sense than shutting down the system completely. I don't do that here, again, that'd be something for you to decide based on your winter temps. Page 22:
There will likely be a setting to activate or defeat the freeze protection You'll need to figure that out. If you can't (or if there is no way to defeat it), then you could always defeat the solar valve via it's manual switch. More on that later if it comes to that.
Note that if you do decide to use the freeze protection of SolarTouch, it would not be active in a power failure. So theoretically, you could find yourself in a situation where the freeze protection mode filled your panels, but then the power goes out and the pump stops and the panels will be full of water. Maybe they'd drain before that water froze, maybe they wouldn't. Anywho, that's one reason I don't allow freeze protection to pump water through my panels in the winter. I just drain it and then shut down the solar heating schedule. Because my pipes go below my solar valve, I have two drain valves just above the ground that flush out the last bit of above-ground water. Some water stays underground, but I live in an area with a near-zero frost line, so some water underground is fine. But that's not an issue for your setup.
I'm just basing all this on my limited experience. If you want to be more sure of how your system works, you don't have to track down the original installer. Your system is pretty standard, and just about any local solar installer can take a look. Just hire them for a service call, and they can determine all that I've described, and what is best in your Sacramento area (they'd know). And if winterizing is required, they could do it, or teach you how to do it.
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- May 3, 2007
- 18,112
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
When you say that solar turned off for the day, do you mean only the solar valve turned off but the pump remained on or that both the solar valve and the pump turned at the same time or the solar valve turned off and then later the pump turned off? The drain state of solar is dependent not only on the position of the solar valve but also on the on/off state of the pump.
If the solar valve turns off but the pump remains on, then the panels will likely still be filled with water especially on a single story install because the pump pressure will keep the water in the panels.
If both the solar valve and pump shut off simultaneously, the water on the return side of the plumbing post VRV will drain very quickly and that can definitely make some noise but will only last a few seconds as it drains. On the supply side, it takes time for the valve to shut off so that too will drain fairly quickly but after the valve shuts off, then the water will drain slowly through the solar valve and that should not really make that much noise as flow rates are low.
If the solar valve shuts off first and then the pump shuts off at a later time, then again, the return side drains quickly but the supply side will take much longer to drain in this scenario because the water did not first drain with the valve open.
Based upon the pictures, it looks like the panels would drain sufficiently so that no winterizing would ever be needed. As long as the panels drain most of the water out, any ice formation should not be an issue. Freeze damage only occurs when the pipes are completely filled with water AND there are blockages (ice dams and/or closed valves) preventing the expansion of the ice.
Plus, we live in very similar climates and freezing in the panels was never a concern of mine and I never do any winterizing of the panels. Looking at Sacramento temperatures, it doesn't look like freezing should be much of an issue. Any short dips into freezing isn't going to freeze the water solid anyway. It takes very low temperatures for long periods of time for water to freeze solid in plumbing.
Also, as long as the panels drain most of the water out, any ice formation should not be an issue. Freeze damage only occurs when a pipe section is completely filled with water AND there are blockages (ice and/or valves) on both sides preventing the expansion of the ice. This rarely would happen in a well designed solar system. Are panels and pipe slightly tilted left low to right high? Any low points in the drain paths?
This may be of interest:
The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection
Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...
www.troublefreepool.com
I have a header end cap VRV on the supply side header and when solar was installed on our two story roof, the VRV itself never really made much noise. I could hear the water rushing down after the pump shut off but not much from the VRV except maybe a faint woosh sound of the air traveling into the VRV but no gulping. Even though the VRV was located on the supply side, it was still on the high side of the panels because the headers were on the left and right of the roof going up each side of the roof line (i.e. horizontal panels) instead of top and bottom.
I would expect some gulping for a VRV located on the supply side below the panels as air is entering at the same time water is traversing that point so it is likely to oscillate between the two.
In the OPs case, it isn't clear to me where the VRV was located previously so it is hard to say if the location was the issue or the VRV itself was causing the problem. But where it is now, I would not expect that to happen.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,682
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
@BB_Sacramento, I didn't get into this aspect of panel installation because your panels don't appear to be tilted. I installed my own system, and took a lot of trouble to tilt mine. Obviously, all the little tubes will drain, because one side of them is higher than the other. But if the manifolds, or other plumbing pipes, are dead-parallel to the ridge line of your roof, then one side will not be higher than the other, and they will trap some amount of water. But not usually enough to cause any freeze problems, as Mark describes.
I determined that your panels are not likely tilted, because you can see, in the pic you provided, how the bottom manifold is parallel with the row of roof tiles below it. Compare that to my array, where both the top and bottom manifolds are skewed to not be parallel to the roof, and then the supply pipe skews the opposite way. This ensures that both manifolds and that supply pipe will drain almost completely, because all three have a high side and a low side.
It's a little hard to see at this angle, but if you follow the tiles above the top manifold, you can barely make out that they are not parallel. It's more obvious at the bottom of the array, where the lower manifold and the supply pipe form a very long V. The manifold is high on the right, and low on the left, and then the supply pipe is high on the left and low on the right. It's not much, but enough to drain out most of the water. There are probably some low spots that trap some water, but not likely more than an 1/8-1/4" thick.
Your manifolds might trap a little more, but not by much.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,682
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
FYI: there is a second, arguably more important reason to tilt the panels. Tilted, they will fill and flow more efficiently, in terms of producing heat. This webpage explains what's going on with some great animations. They'll also help you understand how the flow will work in reverse when the panels are draining, too. This site is where I learned how to install my panels correctly.
www.h2otsun.com
I'm just giving you a little primer. Don't obsess over the lack of tilt of your panels. As long as they are not tilted the wrong way, they'll heat and drain well enough.
Plumbing a Solar Pool Heater | Hot Sun Solar Pool Heating
The basic concepts you must know to correctly plumb a solar pool heater.
www.h2otsun.com
I'm just giving you a little primer. Don't obsess over the lack of tilt of your panels. As long as they are not tilted the wrong way, they'll heat and drain well enough.
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Thanks for all the thorough replies to my post! I really appreciate all of them. My solar panel is on about the same times as the pump is running, and they both stop about the same time. In Sacramento we have very little freezing nights throughout the winter similar to the Central Valley. Since the weather has cooled off the past few days the solar heater is making a lot of bubbles into the pool inlet and a lot of noise in the bedroom wall the whole time the pump is running, so I manually disabled the solar panel and the bubbles and noise stopped. So (hopefully) in the spring when it heats up again I can enable the solar heater at the panel and it will work with no issues. At this point I think it's ok for me to turn down the speed of the pump since now it doesn't have to go up to the roof. It will be quieter and use less energy during these cooler months.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,682
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Sounds good. The "fall RPMs" only need to satisfy the SWG and the skimming. Then just skimming when winter shuts down your SWG. Same goes for your runtime. I get down to about 1500RPM for four hours in the winter, and could probably do with much less of both. I have PV solar, so I don't pay for electricity anymore, so I don't run as energy efficiently as I probably should.