Overdig backfill compaction.

[setsailsoon]

Zero, shame on me for assuming this would be standard practice.

Not necessarily true as in most states there is an assumed standard of merchantability statute. Very difficult to enforce but may give you some leverage. I would use this to get a solution to save headache down the road. It's very costly to repair later. Even a change order cost may be worth it. Get a price then offer to split it. Tell him it will save him the cost of defending a claim later on and you're willing to split it with him.

My $.02.

Chris

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Linking this to your previous comment about contractual paid scope of work. I would assume there is no clause in the contract prohibiting them from using on site trash for backfill. So at some point known accepted standards should be enforced..

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Perhaps you misread me or I failed to articulate;
My true point is always cite a standard in a contract; even if x standard is not codified in the state work is performed. This makes for happy buyers & contractors.

This thread is the perfect example.

 

[SPman]

Here's some of the highlight video.

 

[Rich D]

Perhaps you misread me or I failed to articulate;

Funny you should say that.. I often find your posts on here to be short and a bit cryptic for those of us not in the industry and unfamiliar with the terminologies and accepted practices . I am guilty of sometimes "assuming" I know what you are stating and do not ask for clarification. So, case in point...

My true point is always cite a standard in a contract

Pretty sure I got that and definitely agree.. The Document that the OP posted looks more like a simple proposal quote that should have been followed up with a more detailed "contract"

even if x standard is not codified in the state work is performed

Could you possibly clarify that one for me..

Thanks, Rich..

 

[Griswald]

If you lived where I do, none of this applies. There is no dirt or rocks, just sand. Sand down to 8 feet. Easy backfill...

 

[BMK]

You do need to be careful using stone for backfill against expansious materials as well. Without a sub drain, if surface water finds its way into the stone it will collect there and saturate the adjoining soil which can cause swelling and shrinkage.

For my original response, I didnt go into full detail, but the PB's M.O. is stone backfill over french drains around the perimeter of the pool. The explanation was what you said....while the stone provides good drainage, the water should still be channeled away.
Regardless, it just seems like backfilling and pouring a slab on the excavated, uncompacted soil is asking for trouble

 

[Rich D]

For my original response, I didnt go into full detail, but the PB's M.O. is stone backfill over french drains around the perimeter of the pool

Nice to see some pool builders do there homework. Sounds like you found a good one.

 

[Rich D]

Here's some of the highlight video.

Hard to see much in the video.

Are there pipes under where he decided to push that large slag piece in?

What I can say is that large piece is unacceptable backfill. The material under it can not be properly compacted and it could certainly heave in a frost condition.
The depth of the backfill for a structural area is not acceptable.

The backfill material 'appears' to of a Sandy type Wich is a good thing. This allows for flood settling in tight areas and around utilities. Personally I would not place any type of patio on that backfill.


As Chris mentioned I would try to work with the PB to remove the backfill material, haul off any unsuitable materials like the large slag pieces and re-install the material in lifts with the proper compaction method and moister content for that material. As with most things this will be a negotiation process so I would show him the video and start with having him pay for the entire process then negotiate to a fair price.

 

[SPman]

Hard to see much in the video.

Are there pipes under where he decided to push that large slag piece in?

What I can say is that large piece is unacceptable backfill. The material under it can not be properly compacted and it could certainly heave in a frost condition.
The depth of the backfill for a structural area is not acceptable.

The backfill material 'appears' to of a Sandy type Wich is a good thing. This allows for flood settling in tight areas and around utilities. Personally I would not place any type of patio on that backfill.


As Chris mentioned I would try to work with the PB to remove the backfill material, haul off any unsuitable materials like the large slag pieces and re-install the material in lifts with the proper compaction method and moister content for that material. As with most things this will be a negotiation process so I would show him the video and start with having him pay for the entire process then negotiate to a fair price.

Yes Rich, there are pipes under that area. PB has agreed to remove large chunks of concrete, nothing more.

 

[Rich D]

Yes Rich, there are pipes under that area. PB has agreed to remove large chunks of concrete, nothing more.

Wow.. Totally unacceptable to place those large pieces on top of utilities in any type of backfill. It is also unacceptable to be dumping buckets full of material on top of utilities. It should be placed slowly and that guy with the shovel is supposed to be watching for and removing anything that could damage the utilities. As stated before the utilities should be encased in 6" of sand. That is a clear code violation for plumbing and electric and needs to be corrected. I would not think the city inspectors would think to highly of those videos.

Unless those workers documented where they buried the oversize backfill material (not likely )how will he remove it without removing all of the backfill material? So if he removes the material perhaps if you offered to pay for the additional time it would would take to do the proper compaction when he back fills again.

 

[BMK]

Yes Rich, there are pipes under that area. PB has agreed to remove large chunks of concrete, nothing more.

I'm curious how he is going to locate and remove only the large chunks of concrete buried in the backfill.
To me, the fact that he has agreed to remove the large chunks of concrete indicates he knew it was wrong in the first place.

 

[SPman]

I've been in the construction industry for 20yrs, I knew instantly this was wrong. I've searched the Brookhaven town (local) and New York State codes available online and haven't been able to find anything related to this topic.
Excellent question about locating the large chunks of concrete, I'll have to relay that.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Pool piping is not considered a utility; if that’s in
question.

“Select” backfill passes through a 3/4” screed, within 4” of a utility.

- to the gentleman a few posts up. If a state code does not incorporate a standard; take any APSP/ANSI # for example; they can be referenced in the contract and parties are bound to its practices.

As a consumer & contractor; I love a great contract. All parties are protected & accountable.

One may also reference material manufacturer placement warranty demands during disputes.

 

[Rich D]

I've been in the construction industry for 20yrs, I knew instantly this was wrong. I've searched the Brookhaven town (local) and New York State codes available online and haven't been able to find anything related to this topic.
Excellent question about locating the large chunks of concrete, I'll have to relay that.

Was there any electric conduit in the trench?

The pool plumbing lines might be a grey area depending on local codes. Usually the plumbing code stops 10' outside of a building.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Pool is not potable water; an auto fill line is the caveat.

 

[SPman]

Was there any electric conduit in the trench?

The pool plumbing lines might be a grey area depending on local codes. Usually the plumbing code stops 10' outside of a building.

(2) 1" sch 40 pvc conduits for lights.

 

[jimmythegreek]

You got lucky that you saw what went into the backfill. I've ripped out about a dozen pool decks in my time and every one of them had large voids under sections of slab from settling. That's why rush builders use 4" stand pipes filled with concrete and steel wall pools have deck supports as an option. I have yet to see a pool video or pics going in that has a guy running a jumping Jack while back filling but there are guys who do that. I would have them get the liner and coping if needed to get water in the pool and then soak and sink the backfill and compact it with a jumpin Jack or a reversible plate compactor. These are a few hundred pounds not the little guys you can rent at home depot you need equipment to move it around they compact well. I doubt he would have access to a small sheep's foot roller that would be best

 

[Rich D]

Pool piping is not considered a utility; if that’s in
question

Yes, I was incorrect to refer to it as such.
I did see a post of yours on another thread indicating that pool installers in Connecticut need to be certified. I am not sure if this will have any impact for this situation but could you clarify what that certification is and if these certified workers are bound to any codes or restrictions governing the installation of pool plumbing lines and if new York would have the same certification requirements.

to the gentleman a few posts up. If a state code does not incorporate a standard; take any APSP/ANSI # for example; they can be referenced in the contract and parties are bound to its practices

Thank you for the clarification.

As a consumer & contractor; I love a great contract. All parties are protected & accountable

I could not agree more.

Pool is not potable water; an auto fill line is the caveat

Understood. I believe even the auto fill will fall outside any local plumbing code once it is outside and past the backflow.

One may also reference material manufacturer placement warranty demands during disputes

That is a great suggestion..

 

[Rich D]

(2) 1" sch 40 pvc conduits for lights.

There are definite code restrictions on the trench details of underground electric.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

The best analogy follows.
Licensing = DMV
Certifications = triple A.

We are licensed through the state in CT.
Certifications are via private entities. Some states accept the certification as prerequisite to licenses per jurisdiction; without further qualification.

As always, per local jurisdiction.

I think you are in Massachusetts? - licensing is very close to getting your governors signature.