OK I guess I am offensive French, but I need bromine info?

[renohuskerdu]

Well I try this again, already some touching NJ pool guy say I offend him by asking, so please do not be offend by my question! OK? Not offensive intended!

I have a pretty big AG pool with sand filter and big pump (see my sig) and a big espensive BROMINATOR. Ok well maybe somebody sold me a boat, but my neighbor and the pool stores guys near here suggest Bromine. They say it stink less and last longer.

Well here am I with my stuff now, and I find your oh its good site here with much info! I am happy! But oh woe no pages talk of Bromine. So now what to do? Well maybe I can put clorine tablettes in the brominator? AND those pool stores guys also say NO CYA with bromine.

Woe is to me. Any body knows more about using bromine or do I waste that 150 dollar euros?

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Bonjour!
Cela devrait vous aider: (yes I did use google translator... )
how-do-i-use-bromine-in-my-spa-or-pool-t102.html

 

[Isaac-1]

Some real experts will be along soon, but until then let me say that the European way to manange pools and the American way tend to be VERY different. There seems to be some tendency of Europeans to avoid using chorine in pools, personally I don't understand it, climate may also make a difference (number of months of the swim season, amount and intensity of sunlight, perhaps higher percentage of indoor pools, etc). What I have read of bromine is that while potentially an effective sanitizer (it is commonly used in the U.S. in hot tubs, but rarely in pools), there are some problems, first it can be poisous to pets that may drink the pool water, secondly it becomes locked into a chemical cycle in the pool and can only be effectively removed by draining and replacing the water. Anyway some of the experts should be along here, and I hope you find that we have a friendly well meaning group here.

Ike

 

[257WbyMag]

I think that Isaac-1 has it pretty much correct in that straight up chlorine pools aren't as popular in Europe as they are here. I also seem to remember that bleach isn't as widely available for consumer use as it is here in the USA due to some fairly draconian regulations and this may explain why bromine is favored.

The way I see it, bromine is an alternative to chlorine. It's not a substitute, but an alternative. The link that MITS posted gives good information. You will find though that the vast majority of the thousands of members here are on chlorine systems rather than bromine because it works better, costs less, and is easier to manage than any other type.

 

[Darkside of the Pool]

Well, I am sure some people will give you more detailled infos, but here's what I can say:

''They say it stink less and last longer.''

No, and yes. A properly chlorinated pool shouldn't smell and an unsanitarily maintained bromine pool will smell. The biggest advantage you WILL get from bromine is that it will remain in your pool, form some kind of reserve, which you can then activate using MPS or Chlorine. This leads to the biggest disadvantage: You won't switch back to chlorine, even if you stop adding bromine and add chlorine instead. All it will do is to refresh the bromine. You'd need to drain.

Having CYA in your day-to-day chlorine is indeed a bad thing. I know it can be tedious to add Bleach or Cal-Hypo on a day to day basis, but good discipline, regular testing (not based on pool stores teenagers) gives the best pools. If you truly do not wish to add it every day, then bromine in a brominator might be the answer. (There's compact hypo-cal capsules sold in Québec, wonder if there's any in your region, that would be a better option though almost as costly IMHO.)

If you want to save a big part of your 150 dollars euro, want a sparkling pool, and don't mind taking care of your pool on a daily basis, I still strongly recommend good ol' chlorine.

Mais t'inquiètes pas trop... on trouve pas tous le français offensant.

Bonne journée.

 

[Darkside of the Pool]

Hey, Melt in the sun, good link but it refers to spas AND liquid bromine. Sad.

Brominator refers to a bromine tablets dispenser. I doubt he will be using any sodium bromine. Most advices in it are good however. Tabs have one MAJOR drawback: they're used VERY slowly. Got spas around here who works solely on Bromine tabs. A pain to have the first reading. If OP goes for Bromine, I'd suggest to have Liquid bromine at hand to start up, and shock it. However, it might get costly (No Idea).

Trick here is to crush a tab in a ziploc bag and pour it into the skimmer so it melts faster.
Need better advice.

 

[geekgranny]

I found TFP last year and have switched to the BBB method. Prior to that I used ionization and far too little chlorine to keep my pool properly sanitized. In addition the ionization caused copper staining in my plaster pool. This was due partly because I didn't know how to keep the water balanced to avoid the copper staining.

When we moved into this house, 24 years ago, there was an inline chlorine puck feeder for the pool. I didn't know nearly as much as I do now about proper maintanence, thanks to TFP.

I switched to an inline Bromine feeder for two reasons. First, the chlorine was bleaching out the coats on my swimming show dogs; second my husband could not tolerate the chlorine, skin and smell. At that time, in the late 1980's I found the Bromine to last longer although it did cost more up front. But it evened out to cost about the same as using chlorine pucks. There is a possibility that Bromine cost less, back then, in comparison to Chlorine pucks.

Now that I know how to properly use chlorine and keep the water balanced my pool never smells of chlorine, except for a few minutes after I add the bleach, AND my dogs, who are in the pool frequently are having no bleaching of their coats. Two of the dogs are black so I would certainly notice it as black dogs bleach out to a reddish color especially in our searing, sizzling, scorching southwestern US sun.

Both my husband and I have delicate skin. Our pool water feels better and dries out our skin less than our tap water which has much less chlorine concentration that the pool water.

Right now I am using Bromine in our spa that is outside but covered most of the time. With the next water change out I'm switching back to chlorine in the spa. The bromine smell is more offensive to us than the "no-odor" chlorine and I find it much easier to keep the water balanced using chlorine.

Besides your pool always being a Bromine pool unless you drain and refill there might be some issues putting chlorine tabs/pucks in a feeder that has had Bromine used in it. I don't really know about that. Let's let the experts advise. When I switched to Bromine, many years ago, I put in a new feeder but it may not have been necessary.

gg=alice

 

[chem geek]

Just to set the record straight, there is no product for "liquid bromine" (though there is such a chemical for lab use). There is sodium bromide powder one can add to create a bromide bank and there is liquid chlorine (i.e. chlorinating liquid or bleach) that one can use to reactivate bromide to bromine which is what was referred to in the Pool School Further Reading article on bromine. As I noted in this post in another thread similar to this one, there are other downsides to using bromine.

Anyway, as I asked in the other thread, what is your specific question about bromine? If you've already added sodium bromide to your pool or otherwise used bromine extensively in your pool, then the only way to convert to a chlorine pool is with a full replacement of the water. "Brominating Concentrate" is sometimes a mixture of Dichlor and sodium bromide so effectively adds bromine, bromide and CYA all at the same time. Do you have specific products you have been using? Do they have ingredients listed on the labels that you can give to us?

 

[teapot]

And as I said on the last thread, Who says chlorine and SWG pools are not popular or common in France?
Just because the French pool stores tell as many un thruths as pools stores everywhere else and don't test the water properly and sell hydrogen peroxide to people with algae problems etc etc

What is your question?

The real reason the pool store is telling you to use Brome is the profit for themselves. Brome 34 euros for 5kg compared to 18 euros for chlorine multi action gallets or 18 euros for 20 litre bidon of 9.6% javel from a Brico.

Fortunately the Alsace seems to be a region without a water restriction at the moment so re-filling the pool may be possible.

 

[renohuskerdu]

Mais t'inquiètes pas trop... on trouve pas tous le français offensant. Bonne journée.

Hello to Darkside of the Pool, teapot, chem geek, geekgrammy, 257wbymag, Isaac-1, melt in the sun. Wow what nice peoples you are! I did all but forgot about the mean NJ guy now. Well you are correct I did not give specifics questions for you consideration. My situation is so:

I have bromine pucks (I have to look for that word in wiki) in my brominator. It holds 2kg pucks. That much will lasts me all summer. Yes they costs a little more then chlorine pucks but not so much here in Alsace. I am sorry but the bucket of pucks only says ''brome'' and 5kg.

Yes many peoples here say chlorine is too much smell and so bromine is better. Also they say with brome we have less chemical agents to put. Do I know is that all true as a true fact? No I have only Bac+4 education, not a doctorat. So I am looking for more informations here from you nice peoples.

Yes I have some knowledge of the US from my friends and they tell me about your very big swimming pools with no tax to pay and the sun that it there so much months. Here we only use the pool maybe one months on the year! We have nice July this year but the agriculteurs were sad because no rain. But my childrens were all at summer camp then. Now August they are back but we have so much rain! My facebook friends in US still say good weather there. So maybe we used brome because we have less sun more rain? I do not know, I have no doctorat in chemistrie.

OK now we talk of tester. You will not like my tester but it is the best they sell here! It costs some money too. It is AquaChek with little plastics strips to dip in the water. Only tested are Cl, pH and TA. Well the pool stores guy say make two times multiply my Cl number to know my real Cl number because I use brome not chlorine. So imagine my AquaChek say 2.2 Cl, well that is really 4.4 Cl which is the good target.

''what is your specific question about bromine” you did say. Well I need to say more not specific! The pool stores guy just say two times your Cl number and that is all. But I have problem with pH always going up like a bird in the sky. And yes you are right some french guys are full of poop so I do not really trust the pool stores guy. I find in my heart that something more must be there to learn at this problem. Can I for true just take two my Cl number and use brome like chlorine? I hope that this list can tell me the truths, all the truths, nothings but the truths!

Oh yes I almost forget we have a well and that is half our pool so we can refill it again but well that make my husband mad to waste water.

Well thank you people very much. I do not use google translate for this because I study English at the université and speak sometimes at work too.

Griselle

 

[Darkside of the Pool]

Just to set the record straight, there is no product for "liquid bromine" (though there is such a chemical for lab use).

Chemgeek, must admit you got me here... should have said ''Pre-Diluted Sodium Bromine''. I believed this was the same refference as liquid chlorine, which is only a water solution. I'll be more careful.

Wow what nice peoples you are!

Mmmmmh. Well, when, like JasonLion, Chemgeek, Waterbear and so many others you spend hours helping and teaching people how to take care of their pool, free of charge, being nice and altruistic is kindof a prerequisite. These guys rocks! I, for one, feel indebted and try to help others the same we've been helped.

On another topic: Just one month a year? Even here in the cold wastelands of Canada (okay, I AM exagerating) we still get June, July, August (whithout an heat pump)... short enough to make Cal-Hypo a viable solution. I'd reconsider falling to peer pressure. Who is there to argue if you maintain an odorless TFP??? Like Geekgranny once, so eloquently, said: People will likely be jealous but too proud to ask you your secrets, then will break and ask for your wisdom. Tu pourrais même partir une nouvelle mode!

(As soon as you get your hand on almost anything else, even the cheap drop test with Yellow and Red Drop, yes, this means costier is not better.) Get rid of the Aquacheck, we have the same device (same brand name too) in Québec and it is a HUGE rip-off. Pool owner's error when reading test trips was a lame excuse to hide why they fail. The color is not precise enough and the various chemicals on the strip might cause mix-ups. Now they sell you the same guilt, and doesn't even work better. Got a customer in our store who wanted us to decrypt his test results. One was off-track and his pH showed 'Err' if I recall well... It might be a pain to obtain, but a good test kit will pay for itself.

Sometimes straying from the flock is the best idea, especially when an industry is renowned for its BS. Might be a good idea not to succumb to peer pressure. Most people wish for an easy, care-free solution and that's a perfect target for less-than-honest marketing.

Là-dessus, Griselle, je te souhaite une bonne journée et une piscine ''gratuite de troubles''!

[Edit] Corrected a mistake, there's no such thing as yellow phenol [/End Edit]

 

[chem geek]

The pool stores guy just say two times your Cl number and that is all. But I have problem with pH always going up like a bird in the sky. And yes you are right some french guys are full of poop so I do not really trust the pool stores guy. I find in my heart that something more must be there to learn at this problem. Can I for true just take two my Cl number and use brome like chlorine? I hope that this list can tell me the truths, all the truths, nothings but the truths!

Griselle,

Yes it is true that if you have a chlorine test you can multiply the number by 2 (actually, it's 2.25, but 2 is close enough) to get the bromine reading. The chlorine and bromine tests are essentially the same with the difference being units of measurement. With bromine, what you measure is Total Bromine and you do not worry about the distinction between Free and Combined as you do with chlorine.

Though your test strips are probably very inaccurate, what is the latest pH and Total Alkalinity (TA) reading? I suspect that your pH is rising so much because the TA is high and that is probably due to using well water.

Richard

 

[renohuskerdu]

Though your test strips are probably very inaccurate, what is the latest pH and Total Alkalinity (TA) reading? I suspect that your pH is rising so much because the TA is high and that is probably due to using well water.

Well she started off with no Cl, high pH and high TA. That was well water and municipal water. Then I start bring up Cl with the brominator, too much on the lever brought Cl to 8, and the pH got up to 8.3! So I turn down the brominator now is near 4, and for pH bring that down five times now each time with a pound of ''pH minus'' produit. I get pH to 7.1 and we swim, the next day it is 7.7 or higher.

Meanwhiles the TA is somewhat high, up to 180. But now near 100. Now then I did read on some other Internet that some people say TA can go up to 400 even with no worries.

If this all come from using well water, will this going up over and over business stop finally?

 

[chem geek]

Now then I did read on some other Internet that some people say TA can go up to 400 even with no worries.

If this all come from using well water, will this going up over and over business stop finally?

That's simply not true what you read that the TA can be high with no problems. Unless you are using a very acidic source of sanitation, like Trichlor pucks for chlorine, then a high TA will tend to make the pH rise. Your bromine tabs are somewhat acidic, but obviously not that much which is why your TA is causing the pH to rise. As the TA continues to drop to 80 ppm or even a bit lower, you should find that the pH doesn't rise as quickly. In fact, it should be rising more slowly now than it did when it was at 150 ppm.

With well water high in TA, you'll be needing to add acid to deal with the high TA and rising pH -- there is no way around that. You can, however, accelerate the process by following the Lower Total Alkalinity procedure, but this will not reduce the amount of acid you need to add -- it just accelerates the process so that you get it over with sooner and have less of a pH rise after the procedure is done.