No blowing out lines!!!

[SoDel]

One of many but it makes the point. Pipe freeze investigations

It’s not just the ability of the pipe to flex and expand if ice forms inside it. It’s the ability of the pipe to withstand extreme pressure as frozen plugs of water constrain water as it freezes between. The linked article mentions 10k psi. I think that’s conservatively low, depending on how cold it actually gets (pressure changes the freezing point, but it will eventually freeze if it gets cold enough). Plastic pipe won’t hold 10k psi, flex or solid.

The short version: yes, blow the water out of the pipes before Winter.

 

[Superblue72]

Apologies if we (by that i mean me) get worked up on your behalf. We want you to get your best pool.



I am unaware of anyone leaving the pipes full in our region, but I certainly don't know everyone, so there has to be those who don't.

I don't care what anyone says, I'd blow mine either way.

No apologies are necessary, I just didn't want this thread to be about which pipe is better...it seemed like it was headed down this road...

 

[Newdude]

Found this gem of yours in another thread, which is relevant here

and upgraded all my equipment and pipe size....it amazes me how little they know about the equipment, I mean mine wanted to use a single speed pump and 1.5" lines

If they know so little about the equipment, i'd gander they aren't the plumbing pros they claim either.


Spoiler alert : you don't even want to KNOW how badly they butcher the chemistry.

 

[Superblue72]

Found this gem of yours in another thread, which is relevant here



If they know so little about the equipment, i'd gander they aren't the plumbing pros they claim either.


Spoiler alert : you don't even want to KNOW how badly they butcher the chemistry.

While this is true the not lowering the pool and winterizing/blowing out the lines was part of thier presentation...it was a point they made that they said separated them from other builders because of the pipe...the owner actually showed his own home in the winter with water level up and said they recommend not blowing lines and using antifreeze which is toxic...
They can't be making this up they literally been in business like 50+ years, no bad reviews, and not one mention of pipes bursting due to company giving wrong info...this is why I asked the question because it makes me nervous lol
On a side note I like my pb while he doesn't know a lot of equipment stuff(they pretty much just have 1 set up for everyone) he has been willing to change anything I want. Communication has been good, also the owner is on-site for all installs, he actually does the digging/excavating, this i also like...

 

[proavia]

They can't be making this up they literally been in business like 50+ years

Really? Just like the PBs who make the (false) claims about SWGs causing (unfounded) damage to stone and equipment.

If you're willing to take the risk of not blowing out the pipes, go for it.
If it makes you nervous, you probably already know what you are going to do mitigate your concerns.

 

[sande005]

ummm... " and using antifreeze which is toxic..."

If you use car antifreeze. Which you shouldn't, ever.....
Most RV/Pool antifreeze is Propylene Glycol and water. Less water to lower the freeze point (-20 vs -70, etc.)
Here's a MSDS (required by law to document potential hazards) of one brand -
http://www.chemicalspec.com/Winter_Care_4060_RV_Antifreeze.pdf

Dogs can get sick from it. But not people. Read the label of the next snack cake/pastry you buy. Frequently added to keep them from turning hard over time.....

Some brands may add other things, but in all cases, if intended for a water supply, they all are mandated to be non-toxic.

Just another thing the pool builder is displaying his lack of knowledge about....

 

[Superblue72]

Really? Just like the PBs who make the (false) claims about SWGs causing (unfounded) damage to stone and equipment.

If you're willing to take the risk of not blowing out the pipes, go for it.
If it makes you nervous, you probably already know what you are going to do mitigate your concerns.

I will probably just let them close it this year after install...if anything happens so be it they will have to fix it...but once I get the concrete decking done I will def be blowing the line's...I can't take the risk of a broken pipe under my new decking...

 

[Newdude]

Just another thing the pool builder is displaying his lack of knowledge about....

I can't get past the industry moving on to PVC and eventually energy efficient equipment and the PB stayed defiantly put for 50 years. If the industry didnt frown upon poly (even the thick kind) they would have resurrected it when PVC was scarce. Think of how much money was lost with delayed builds when there was an alternative available, and they still shunned it.

I don't see the PB as a visionary being the only one bucking the norm.

 

[Superblue72]

I can't get past the industry moving on to PVC and eventually energy efficient equipment and the PB stayed defiantly put for 50 years. If the industry didnt frown upon poly (even the thick kind) they would have resurrected it when PVC was scarce.

I don't see the PB as a visionary being the only one bucking the norm.

I agree they aren't with the times...I mean using a single stage pump as the only option seems crazy to me. No swg they use inline chlorinator, only gas heater...1.5" pipe...not much experience with automation...DE filter while nothing wrong with DE its just old school...I switched everything, almost seems like I know more than they do about equipment, and efficiency, probably most people just go with whatever is recommended to them im assuming.. Not me i research everything....this being said I liked the pool builder, communication has been very good he's the owner and will be on-site the whole job. He is also willing to do whatever I want...there is some concern since I'm not thier normal customer with the normal equipment will they lack experience with install and or follow up in the future...but I'm a pretty hands on guy, plus I'm retired so I will be home the whole job...

 

[Newdude]

everything....this being said I liked the pool builder, communication has been very good he's the owner and will be on-site the whole job. He is also willing to do whatever I want..

This right here is HUGE. It's the PB jackpot and I'm a fan too. Even better is his customer first attitude VS my way or the highway.

there is some concern since I'm not thier normal customer with the normal equipment will they lack experience with install and or follow up in the future...

It's common practice here for the electricians to handle the bulk of the install in that regard. They've likely installed plenty of XYZs. Whether he does the plumbing in house or subs it out, plumbing is plumbing.

Ensure they aren't using any ball valves either. The big 3 all have a version of a rebuildable diverter valve (like the Jandy never lube) that ironically last a generation before needing to be rebuilt. Ball valves are lucky to last 5 years.

 

[Superblue72]

Ensure they aren't using any ball valves either. The big 3 all have a version of a rebuildable diverter valve (like the Jandy never lube) that ironically last a generation before needing to be rebuilt. Ball valves are lucky to last 5 years.

Yes even tho the valves weren't specified I asked for diverter valves just in case. I am also including a flowviz gpm meter...

 

[Newdude]

I am also including a flowviz gpm meter...

If you're into toys, by all means. But 98% of people never need a flow meter. We adjust RPMs which equate to flow. If I call it 1800 RPM and you call it 35GPM, it's the same thing. The SWG kicked on and that's what's important.

*had to make up a gpm above as I have no clue what gpms I've ever used.

 

[Superblue72]

If you're into toys, by all means. But 98% of people never need a flow meter. We adjust RPMs which equate to flow. If I call it 1800 RPM and you call it 35GPM, it's the same thing. The SWG kicked on and that's what's important.

*had to make up a gpm above as I have no clue what gpms I've ever used.

Hmmm Ok but if you don't know gpm how do you set up your vs pump to get proper water turnover?

 

[JamesW]

I have no clue what gpms I've ever used.

 

[Superblue72]

View attachment 533065

I don't think hayward has gpm or does it

 

[Newdude]

water turnover?

Turnover is junk. You need the filtering you need, based upon the debris falling into the pool.

No more, no less.

It varies wildly throughout the season, and even house to house on the same block. My big tree blows into my neighbors backyard. I have no debris, he has lots. (I have no trees, just an example). In the spring and fall it drops tons of debris and next to none in July and August.

Between the environment and the season, saying all pools in the land need X turnovers a day is just preposterous.

 

[Superblue72]

Turnover is junk. You need the filtering you need, based upon the debris falling into the pool.

No more, no less.

It varies wildly throughout the season, and even house to house on the same block. My big tree blows into my neighbors backyard. I have no debris, he has lots. (I have no trees, just an example). In the spring and fall it drops tons of debris and next to none in July and August.

Between the environment and the season, saying all pools in the land need X turnovers a day is just preposterous.

This doesnt make sense to me I thought its more than just debris in the pool you need the water turnover to get the best filtration... I'm going to have an auto cover I'll have limited debris in my pool but I'm still going to want to know how much water I'm moving...speaking old school if I don't know my water movement I might as well have kept the 1.5" pipes and single stage pump.
Edit: how do you know a certain rpm = gpm? All systems are different pumps, pipe size, feet of head etc...I may get 35 gpm at say 1800rpm and you get 45 at rhe same...that means you can run at lower rpm and get the same flow....I believe it's a must have personally

 

[Newdude]

you need the water turnover to get the best filtration.

You are filtering debris. Dust, dirt, pollen, or anything else small enough to be dissolved or float. Anything heavy like sand or acorns sink to the floor.

moving...speaking old school if I don't know my water movement

Why do you need to know your water movement ? Based upon some arbitrary # of turnovers the industry came up with ? If they make it high enough, they'll be right for everyone in the world.

TFP : with your autocover you filtered 900% more than you needed, wasting 14 hours of electricity

The industry: SEE ???? We told you 3 turnovers was enough.

I'm going to have an auto cover

PERFECT example !!! When covered you'll have next to zero filtering need. Something always finds a way to blow in somewhere, but it will be minimal.

You will need next to zero skimming also, another function that varies tremendously house to house and throughout the season, or not at all when covered.

The chemicals are mixed in about 15 mins. Twice a day is even better but likely not needed, especially with an autocover and little UV loss.

The time you run your SWG daily will almost certainly cover all of the above.

 

[Superblue72]

You are filtering debris. Dust, dirt, pollen, or anything else small enough to be dissolved or float. Anything heavy like sand or acorns sink to the floor.

Why do you need to know your water movement ? Based upon some arbitrary # of turnovers the industry came up with ? If they make it high enough, they'll be right for everyone in the world.

TFP : with your autocover you filtered 900% more than you needed, wasting 14 hours of electricity

The industry: SEE ???? We told you 3 turnovers was enough.

PERFECT example !!! When covered you'll have next to zero filtering need. Something always finds a way to blow in somewhere, but it will be minimal.

You will need next to zero skimming also, another function that varies tremendously house to house and throughout the season, or not at all when covered.

The chemicals are mixed in about 15 mins. Twice a day is even better but likely not needed, especially with an autocover and little UV loss.

The time you run your SWG daily will almost certainly cover all of the above.

Ok let's talk about this...take the auto cover out of the equation...if I want to run my filter to get X amount of turnover daily how can I get there by not knowing gpm...? Am I just guessing? I know from my previous pool running the filter longer(I had a 2 speed pump) is always better, personally I like running 24/7, it keeps water cleaner and less problems overall. If I'm doing your method why get a vs pump just use a single speed run for like 4 hours a day...the vs pump gives you the option to run longer and keep the pool moving. But if I know I at 900 rpm and I'm getting 20gpm I know if I run the pump 24 hours I will move 29k gallons a day and that's twice my pools volume. And I did this for a very cheap $$.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Ok let's talk about this...take the auto cover out of the equation...if I want to run my filter to get X amount of turnover daily how can I get there by not knowing gpm...? Am I just guessing? I know from my previous pool running the filter longer(I had a 2 speed pump) is always better, personally I like running 24/7, it keeps water cleaner and less problems overall. If I'm doing your method why get a vs pump just use a single speed run for like 4 hours a day...the vs pump gives you the option to run longer and keep the pool moving. But if I know I at 900 rpm and I'm getting 20gpm I know if I run the pump 24 hours I will move 29k gallons a day and that's twice my pools volume. And I did this for a very cheap $$.

Running the pump does several things in order of importance:
1. Allows your SWCG to generate chlorine
2. Circulates the water to allow the skimmers to skim off surface debris
3. Circulates the water to distribute chlorine and the other chemicals
4. Runs water through your filter to filter out suspended debris

While all of it is important, people tend to get hung up on #4 and come up with a formula of how much water should run through your filter per day. If you take care of #1-3, you will naturally keep #4 happy.

I too run my filter 24/7, mainly at speeds low enough to barely keep my skimmers and SWCG happy and my wallet happy. My pool is crystal clear, never had a speck of algae, and I have no idea if I turn over my water once every 5 days or 60 times a day.