New Pool Owner, Cloudy Water

[Richard320]

Questions from newbs never end, despite how often they say "last question", do they?

If I drain out 5000 gallons, do I need to worry about the water table? If so, how do I find out what it is? This is the best information I've found online, but it doesn't look like it has the information I want or need.

In any case, I'm feeling pretty confidant about my success with the pool now. Here's my plan of attack:
1. Buy new pool sand from Home Depot
2. Rent submersible pump (700 GPH max I hope!) from Home Depot
3. I've ordered replacement O-Rings for my Jacuzzi Laser filter, 2 day delivery. Hopefully the company ships quickly so I should have them Thursday or Friday
4. Plumb pump to sewer cleanout on back of house
5. Let pump run for 7 hours
6. While pump is running, replace sand and o-rings (wonder what 350 lbs of sand... well, 350lbs of sand when dry, elevendybillion pounds when wet... looks like in my back yard)
7. Buy all the bleach, borax, and baking soda the grocery store has
8. Thank the guys at the pool store for not being able to help with anything other than making me decide they know barely anything about pools and I'm ignorant for relying on them for help and pushing me towards (ultimately) saving money with BBB
9. Post pictures of the pool
and 10. When the pool clears, thank the people of TFP by donating and then think to myself, "I shoulda donated before buying my test kit so I could have gotten $10 off!"

Since you just moved in, how about step 3.5? Get a rooter company to go through the pipes all the way to the street. They always tell you to run lots of water through after they clean it....7000 gallons ought to be enough. It ought to just about guarantee a decade of trouble-free plumbing!

 

[Noggin]

Hmmm... now that is interesting. On the other hand, I've found that fixing things that aint broke is a bad idea.

Awww Crud I just called Home Depot and the only pump they have to rent out is 53 gallons per minute. I'd pump out the water i want to eliminate in about 2 hours.... but it won't fit down my clean out. Guess I'll stop by on my way home from work to see if it has an adjustable speed. I doubt it does though. Then again, it is probably high volume and low pressure, so I doubt anything would be hurt. I'll probably give it a whirl.

 

[Noggin]

The plan is falling into place. The o-rings will be here on Thursday and the test kit on Friday. Sunny days scheduled for the weekend.

 

[Noggin]

CYA and Cartridge Filters

Topics Merged by Moderator

One of my coworkers has a pool and said that he has never replaced the water. He has a chlorinator with pucks in it as his only source of chlorine. His filter is a cartridge filter so he doesn't backwash. His hardness is very high, but he doesn't bother trying to fix it because he has well water and it apparently is just as hard as his pool so it wouldn't do any good. He doesn't test for stabilizer, but if he's never replaced his water it must be very high as he's had the pool for something like 10 years. Why doesn't he have algae problems? He also said that I'm wasting money with my plan on shocking with bleach as you can buy lbs of shock for a couple of bucks and it doesn't have CYA in it. But doesn't it?

I'm asking because he thinks that I'm wasting my time by planning on doing a partial drain this weekend to try to eliminate a clouding problem which I now believe, due to help on this forum, is algae brought about because my CYA is about 90 and FC is 5.

By the way, I'm also just not touching the pool until I get my test kit and new o-rings. I have bought my bleach though, 6 jugs of 182 oz 6%. Should go ahead and get me some borax and baking soda too while I'm at it. I looked right at the borax in the store today and thought, "hey its that 20 mule stuff!" then walked away. Newbs, eh? Go figure.

 

[duraleigh]

Re: CYA and Cartridge Filters

Some people splashout and refill enough water to keep the CYA level manageable. He may be one of the lucky ones. That said, if he is using pucks, he is applying CYA into his pool....he should go to the trouble of reading the ingredients.

Yes, he can buy powder that has no CYA (just calcium )to shock the pool but there is virtually nothing cheaper than bleach or liquid chlorine to shock a pool or maintain FC. Bleach (liquid chlorine) is a PITA to haul back and forth but it is the single best way to chlorinate or shock you pool and the cheapest.

If you disregard your neighbor, and stay on the forum, your pool will clear. Now, we've sort of back-doored into a little misconception. It may not be algae that has your pool cloudy. The problem with the CYA so high is your pool is very difficult to manage with the CYA that high so folks are suggesting you fix the items one at a time....starting with the reduction of high CYA which just makes everything you want to do to your pool water problematic.

I would offer a few more things to do while you wait on your test kit.

1. Hold off on the Borax and baking soda....you may not need either. They are not consumables like chlorine. Your test results will tell us if you need to use them but you'll likely only need them once, if at all.

2. Read Pool School....ABC's of Pool Water chemistry and all the first few articles. Ask questions about what stuff means and you'll get good answers.

3. Keep all your info under one thread. Folks reading this thread will not remember your other posts and can't figure out your refernces. One of the mods will likely consolidate them for you.

4. Keep the faith. There's no real financial agenda here (full disclosure, I sell test kits) that encourages you to buy any of the Clorox or Borax. We all keep our pools this way, have been doing so for years, and it works! :lol:

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I agree with Dave, hold off on the B and B until you confirm you need it thru testing.

Your friend may just be one of the lucky ones. And while he may not have had "green" water, that's not to say he hasn't had a trouble free pool either, I would guess his pool is less sanitary than he thinks it is. And I would hazard to guess he spends a lot more than "a couple of bucks" and probably uses at least 2 bags of "shock" a week (I've never seen it for less than $2.79 except on clearance at the end of the season) to try to keep the water from clouding up.

Here is a cost analysis that compares the methods of chlorination.

Once your water is cleared up, weekly shocking won't even be necessary and then you'll be the one to come out ahead.

 

[chem geek]

Re: CYA and Cartridge Filters

One of my coworkers has a pool and said that he has never replaced the water.

If he has rain overflow from either summer or winter rains, then this can dilute the water somewhat. His water might also luckily be low in algae nutrients. His pucks might have copper in them or he might be using some algaecide. If there was no dilution, then not only would the CYA be high, but so would the salt levels (chlorine becomes chloride when it's consumed/used).

I started out with Trichlor pucks in my own pool and after 1-1/2 years I started to have problems with higher chlorine demand, cloudy water, etc. and this was in spite of using an algaecide, though only every other week. My CYA rose from 30 ppm to 150 ppm in that time. I had a pool cover pump, a cartridge filter, and did not get dilution through winter rains. I've been on BBB every since and not had algae in spite of 2000-3000 ppb phosphates, though I did let the chlorine drop to zero by accident once during a sprint startup and did have to get rid of lots of ammonia and some nascent algae (dull water).

Also, note that just because it's called BBB that doesn't mean you will actually need Borax or Baking Soda. You only need these if you need to raise the pH or the TA, respectively. When using bleach, usually the pH will go slightly up over time, if anything, so you'll need to add some acid (such as Muriatic Acid) every now and then.

 

[hayfarmer]

I am new pool owner, as of 2 years ago. I started out with the pool store, and quickly found out that they were there to sell me chems and such to make money. That's When i found TFP once i learned a few things, its been nothing but good. I was like you i had a lot of questions. Everyone one on here is great. So don't ever think that you cant ask a question. I just opened my pool last weekend and it was crystal clear, yes it had dirt in the bottom but the water was clear.. I am looking forward to a very easy pool season again this year. With TFP you don't spend very much time on your pool at all. Just a few minutes a day. REALLY!!!!
good luck and READ READ READ and ask questions.

 

[Noggin]

Re: CYA and Cartridge Filters

If you disregard your neighbor, and stay on the forum, your pool will clear. Now, we've sort of back-doored into a little misconception. It may not be algae that has your pool cloudy. The problem with the CYA so high is your pool is very difficult to manage with the CYA that high so folks are suggesting you fix the items one at a time....starting with the reduction of high CYA which just makes everything you want to do to your pool water problematic.

I'm give you guys a shot. He's at a loss for what the problem is, you guys are taking a shot at it. If it works, then I'll probably be here for life. However, I won't swear him off completely as he's very intelligent and has much more experience than I do

1. Hold off on the Borax and baking soda....you may not need either. They are not consumables like chlorine. Your test results will tell us if you need to use them but you'll likely only need them once, if at all.

Okie dokie.

2. Read Pool School....ABC's of Pool Water chemistry and all the first few articles. Ask questions about what stuff means and you'll get good answers.

Read pretty much all of it except for closing an opening a pool and about the upgrades. Very good stuff in there.

3. Keep all your info under one thread. Folks reading this thread will not remember your other posts and can't figure out your refernces. One of the mods will likely consolidate them for you.

I actually considered it a different topic and thought it better to separate them. I was mostly wondering why he (and other cartridge users) get away with using pucks. But, I can also see it as an extension of this thread and almost did post it in here. Either way is fine with me

4. Keep the faith. There's no real financial agenda here (full disclosure, I sell test kits) that encourages you to buy any of the Clorox or Borax. We all keep our pools this way, have been doing so for years, and it works! :lol:

TFTestKits? If so, thank you very much for selling me a kit and shipping it quickly. FedEx estimates that it'll be at my house on Friday, just in time for me to prepare to do the pool this weekend. If it isn't here, then I'm going to have to pick up something from Wally-World so I can keep tabs on the FC during my shockfest.


My timeline is basically this:
Thursday - Receive o-rings
Friday - Receive test kit. Buy 7 bags of sand from Home Depot. Place sand bags near filter. Shut off sprinkler system so I don't drench my sand. Test water post results on forum for more advice.
Saturday - Assuming that the test kit shows my CYA to be high, get to Home Depot as soon as they open to get the sump pump. Begin pool drain. Disassemble filter and replace sand and O-rings. Assuming 700 GPH, drain should be complete by and 5 PM. Begin pool fill. 5 hours of filling (10 PM) should get it nearly full again. Let pump run all night.
Sunday - Test water ASAP to begin shock treatment. Monitor water as long as it takes.

Draining may go MUCH faster than 700 GPH as the pump is rated for over 3000 GPH. It all depends on how much the hose I choose restricts the water flow. The guy (that I shouldn't be trusting for my pool's needs much less anything legal) said that it is OK in Austin to drain into the street. If I get the water to my driveway, it'll run straight down a gutter into a storm sewer. Still need to verify legality and make the final decision on how I'm going to drain.

Whatever is in the pool, the pump is filtering it. But it is still getting worse (actually I think it may have peaked). The pump's pressure increases about 1 PSI every 3 to 4 hours and when I backwash it, it looks about as white as skim milk. I'm getting anxious. I want the weekend to arrive.

 

[PaulR]

I googled "austin tx water department" and from that site searched on "pool drain" which turned up info about main drains but also this page regarding City of Austin rules for draining pools and spas. I found this to be rather cute (emphasis added):

Pool and spa water can be discharged into the storm drain if it does not contain algae or other debris, is free of chlorine and other pool chemicals, and has a pH level between 6.0 and 10.5.

So as long as your pool has no pool chemicals, you're okay draining to the street. I think you need to drain to the sewer.
--paulr

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I hope I don't sound to contradictory to my prior advice - but just to prevent any potential problem from getting worse, I'd advise that you add a couple of jugs of bleach to the water now, just to keep anything that might be happening organic-wise, at bay.

 

[Noggin]

I googled "austin tx water department" and from that site searched on "pool drain" which turned up info about main drains but also this page regarding City of Austin rules for draining pools and spas. I found this to be rather cute (emphasis added):

Pool and spa water can be discharged into the storm drain if it does not contain algae or other debris, is free of chlorine and other pool chemicals, and has a pH level between 6.0 and 10.5.

So as long as your pool has no pool chemicals, you're okay draining to the street. I think you need to drain to the sewer.
--paulr

Welll... algae is green right? Whatever is in my pool is white I'll put it in the sewer. If the pump moves too much water, I can constrict the hose with some zip ties. The pump is high volume low pressure, so increasing the backpressure shouldn't hurt anything. Thanks for finding that. I actually made it to that website, but I don't find anything. Doing a second search reveals that I just didn't scroll down far enough when I searched for "pool". First thing i saw was the city's public pool schedule.

I hope I don't sound to contradictory to my prior advice - but just to prevent any potential problem from getting worse, I'd advise that you add a couple of jugs of bleach to the water now, just to keep anything that might be happening organic-wise, at bay.

Nope, not at all. I was thinking of doing that anyway. The only reason I hadn't is because if my CYA is so high, I'd have to get the chlorine pretty high. Well, according to the pool calc, it'd take just under one 182 oz jug. I'll add one at lunch time. I had considered going ahead and shocking now and not giving a darn about the cost of the bleach, but considering I have never properly shocked a pool I don't want to make it too difficult on myself. Especially since I'm only home for about 3 hours a day on weekdays.

Is backwashing only when pressure is up by about 10psi really enough? I've been told to backwash every weekend. I'd love to only backwash every few months and keep my shoes dry. It's a task to get away from my pool equipment without stepping in water after a backwash.

 

[duraleigh]

The sand is not causing your problem. Change it if you like but it is not the source of your issues. As Jason said, take the filter apart and look at it and clean it up and add more if necessary (do you know how much should be in there?) but entirely changing the sand will not solve your cloudiness.

Is backwashing only when pressure is up by about 10psi really enough? I've been told to backwash every weekend.

I would wait for an increase of at least 5 psi before backwashing. 10 psi may be fine or somewhere in between is okay. Think about why you backwash....it's because there's dirt in your filter that has caused a pressure increase. Why would you backwash when there is no (or very little) dirt? Let you psi guage tell you when to backwash.

Don't overlook the primary things we teach.....Test your water, know how to interpret the tests, then know how to make the adjustments if needed.

Don't make assumptions about your water until you test it. Then, you must learn what the test results mean. We'll help you with that but having a thorough knowledge of Pool School will be very beneficial to you.

After all that, then you can dose your pool accordingly. At this point, we're really only guessing at the problems.....the test results will help us all stop guessing and get it figured out. Meanwhile, please put nothing else in your pool except perhaps a little bleach....perhaps a gallon each evening.

 

[Noggin]

The sand is not causing your problem. Change it if you like but it is not the source of your issues. As Jason said, take the filter apart and look at it and clean it up and add more if necessary (do you know how much should be in there?) but entirely changing the sand will not solve your cloudiness.

Understood, but it is approximately 7 years old. I'm changing my o-rings and sand is cheap. I don't know where the top level should be, but the filter calls for 350 lbs of sand. I completely agree that new sand will not solve my issues. The sand is filtering out massive amounts of whatever is in the water, as I can see daily in the backwash now. It is just accumulating faster than the filter can remove it. Maybe I'll get lucky and this will some kind of CYA eating bacteria. I can bottle it and sell it before I shock it if that's the case.

 

[Noggin]

I just got home from work and the water was almost clear and I noticed that I didn't hear the pump running. Turns out I forgot to turn it back on after backwashing yesterday. As soon as I turned the pump back on the creepy kicked up a massive white cloud. I'm thinking that the floc has finally decided to settle. However, I returned my vacuum so I don't have a way to vacuum it up. I still don't know what made it cloudy to begin with, and I still plan on going with the BBB method, but perhaps it isn't algae at all. Since I don't have a vacuum any more, I turned the pump back on. It should clear it up eventually.

Since I saw something unexpected I opted not to put bleach into the pool. I understand that test strips are highly inaccurate, but they show my pH in the mid 7's, FC as 5, and everything else as OK. I'm not sure that I should trust the pool store's reading of CYA so I'm going to bring the sample to another place. I'm sure that there has to be another one nearby. Wish my kit was here... I'll base my drain decision based on the results of my kit.

 

[Noggin]

Original Test
Free Chlorine 5ppm
Total Chlorine 5ppm
Combined Chlorine 0ppm
pH 7.8
Hardness 155ppm
Alkalinity 85ppm
Total Dissolved Solids 1500ppm

Store #2 Today
Saturation Index 0.35 - What is this?
Total Dissolved Solids 100ppm - Way off from original store
Free Chlorine 1.8
Total Chlorine 1.1
Combined Chlorine -0.7 Yes, negative 0.7
pH 7.6
CYA 62 - Woo hoo! Not as bad as we thought!
Copper 0
Iron 0
TA 116
Adjusted TA 95 what is this?
Hardness 275

Store #3
FC 4
TC 4
CH 310
CYA 30 - Oh holy Crud.... WTF is going on?
TA 120
pH 7.4
Base Demand 1
Copper 0
Iron 0
Total Dissolved Solids 1800
Phosphates 100
Temperature 55


Ok, so store #2 is not getting my business that is for sure. The woman wasn't even slightly concerned about negative combined chlorine. She said you want that as low as possible and negative was good. Not only that, but total dissolved solids is way lower than either of the other two stores.

I can completely understand the numbers varying slightly, it is a human operated test with many chances for error, so the pH varying a bit is perfectly OK with me (especially since the first test was almost a week ago). But CYA changing from 90 to 62 or 30 in a week? The second two stores used the same water sample. This really makes me concerned about pool chemistry. Are people adjusting their pools on bad information? Is the test kit I ordered going to give me better results or am I just going to have another colorful random number generator? Oh well, 2 out of 3 stores say I don't need to do a partial drain. Wonder what my kit is going to tell me tomorrow.

The (notoriously inaccurate) dip strip looked like it was probably at 30 CYA yesterday.

 

[JasonLion]

We see this all the time, pool stores are not the best place to get your water tested (unless you are especially lucky and have a really amazing pool store and know that it is really amazing for sure). This is why you want to own your own top quality test kit and do all of your water testing yourself. That way your test results will be better than 98% of all pool store water testing.

Just to confirm, CC can not be negative. Zero is the lowest it can be. Likewise, total dissolved solids can possibly not be as low as 100 given your other numbers. Saturation index is a measure of how the water will affect the plaster. You don't normally need to worry about it as long as you keep your levels within the recommended range. It can be handy in some special situations, none of which appear to apply here. Ignore adjusted TA, that is only used when calculating the saturation index.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Seems to me she mixed up the FC CC and TC results which caused the - number. Your CC is probably .7, TC 1.8 and FC 1.1 (if I could guess)
You will get the hang of doing the CYA test, and your results WILL be more accurate.

 

[Noggin]

Thanks, I'm still hoping to get my test kit tomorrow. I do have some hope that I won't have to drain now though. I'd better get the hang of testing CYA VERY fast

I explicitly asked about the -0.7 and she said, "Yeah, that's good, you want it as low as possible." I think she doesn't understand the results, I think all she knows to do is enter the information in the PC. That's OK I guess... if she had it right. All I know is that I'm glad I have already decided not to go with any of the pool stores for tests anymore. I just did this mostly out of curiosity and was hoping that at least two of the sources were similar enough that I could take a best-of-three approach at what my CYA actually was.

Again, thanks for helping and thanks for reading. I know I'm posting a lot about the same-ole same-ole and nothing is getting done (yet)

 

[hayfarmer]

you will love your test kit.. very easy to use!!! I am a dumb farmer and i can even do it. The cya is the hardest of all the test but even it is pretty easy... Pool stores just don't get it... i have not been there in about a year... unless i need parts, and they always ask how are you doing on chemicals, do you need any? And i always just politely say no i don't.... When you get used to the BBB method you wont go back...
good luck