New guy with an old pool - Bonding Issue

[AL2K]

Hi folks, I’ve been reading through forum posts for quite some time and think it’s time to join the site, and dig a little deeper. I’ll save the actual issue for the proper forum but here’s a short intro…. Al here, retired USN with another 20 as a defense contractor. I’ve had in-ground pools on and off since 1991. We’ve had the current pool for over 18 years but it’s around 40 years old. We currently have the “tingle” and bonding problems. I have an electronics background and sort-of speak the lingo. I plan on going through plenty of posts, and hopefully find a fix for the issue.

Thanks to all that have posted about the bonding issue. I’m digesting the info daily.

Regards,
Al

 

[mas985]

More often then not, when someone experiences "tingles" from the pool, there is a bonding issue somewhere.

Is the pool and decking fully bonded?

Where does the bonding wire connect to the equipment?

Where on the pool are the shocks occurring and what is the placement of the hands and feet?

Neutral to Earth Voltage (NEV) can also contribute to the problem although if the pool was bonded properly, there still should be no shocks.

Do you live in a more rural type of environment with lower population densities? These areas are more prone to NEV problems from the power company. Bad neutral connections to the home can also cause NEV.

 

[AL2K]

Thanks mas985! Bonding is definitely part of my problem.
I want to move this discussion to the proper forum… not sure which one since a search shows this topic in several.
To answer your questions…
*Not fully bonded, 40 year old pool. I have two stainless hand rails… one of which provides the tingle. This one has good continuity to the pad and motor chassis. The other is showing possible corroded connection appx 200 ohms to the other.
*Ladder anchors have bonding contacts… neither of them have continuity to either handrail.
*I added a water bond fitting near the pump… didn’t help but the water is bonded.
*We’re in a housing neighborhood with plenty of houses nearby. Three electricians and a power company tech all threw their hands up and said I need to add several grounding rods to the bonding grid. Power company rep determined we’re picking up voltage through the ground…possible ungrounded water heater in a neighbor’s house.
*4.5 VAC between the motor casing and bonding wire (with the power meter removed from house).

I’ll copy and paste this to a better forum asap. (Looks like an admin beat me to it, thx)

 

[mas985]

Thanks mas985! Bonding is definitely part of my problem.
I want to move this discussion to the proper forum… not sure which one since a search shows this topic in several.
To answer your questions…
*Not fully bonded, 40 year old pool. I have two stainless hand rails… one of which provides the tingle. This one has good continuity to the pad and motor chassis. The other is showing possible corroded connection appx 200 ohms to the other.

So is the tingle between the two railings or the railing and the pool water?

*Ladder anchors have bonding contacts… neither of them have continuity to either handrail.

There is the problem. They should have continuity. Can you remove them and clean up the anchor?

*I added a water bond fitting near the pump… didn’t help but the water is bonded.
*We’re in a housing neighborhood with plenty of houses nearby.

That is not what I meant. In between neighborhoods, is there a lot of empty space and/or farm land? NE, FL does not give me a lot to work with. I don't need an exact location just somewhere nearby.

Three electricians and a power company tech all threw their hands up and said I need to add several grounding rods to the bonding grid. Power company rep determined we’re picking up voltage through the ground…possible ungrounded water heater in a neighbor’s house.

In order to pickup voltage from the Earth, the contact source needs to be very close by so I don't think that is the issue. Voltage falls off very quickly with distance from the contact point because the Earth's volume is so large.

I think the problem is that the railings are not properly bonded as they should be.

*4.5 VAC between the motor casing and bonding wire (with the power meter removed from house).

I’ll copy and paste this to a better forum asap.

Most likely it is neutral that has the voltage, not the bonding wire.

 

[AL2K]

So is the tingle between the two railings or the railing and the pool water?

Learning how to reply to each question lol.

The railing with good continuity to the casing/grid is the one passing the tingle, while standing in or touching the water… even though the water is bonded by the fitting. I connected both railings together and felt it on both. Obviously, disconnecting from the motor casing stopped the shock.

 

[mas985]

Learning how to reply to each question lol.

After clicking reply, place cursor after the sentence you want to reply to and hit return. This separates the reply into multiple segments like I have done in this post.

The railing with good continuity to the casing/grid is the one passing the tingle, while standing in or touching the water… even though the water is bonded by the fitting. I connected both railings together and felt it on both.

Water is not a perfect conductor as it has some resistance so voltage gradients can develop between the grounding point and the contact point.

Obviously, disconnecting from the motor casing stopped the shock.

Which makes me think the problem is with the home neutral. With power company NEV or a bad home neutral connection.

Again, your approximate location will help me determine if PC NEV is possible.

 

[AL2K]

There is the problem. They should have continuity. Can you remove them and clean up the anchor?

I’ll work on combining all of the answers from now on.

Ladder Anchors are set in the concrete deck but I plan on replacing since one is cracked. I have close enough access that I can dig under the deck and feel around for the bonding wire… if there is one.

Orange Park, FL. Look at ridgecrest or Stonebridge area

I think I have my hands full just working through the bonding issue. There’s still the one hand rail that seems unbonded. If the anchors don’t help, there’s probably gonna be some concrete busting’ soon.

 

[mas985]

I would focus on those anchors as well. Even a temporary bond to the railings to prove that is the issue.

BTW, is the concrete wet or dry around the railings when these tingles occur?

 

[AL2K]

BTW, is the concrete wet or dry around the railings when these tingles occur?

Pretty sure both… I’ve been zapped while standing in the pool and wife got hit while sitting on the wet concrete with her feet in the pool. I’ll pay more attention to the conditions in the next few days. Gotta keep swimming… been in the 90’s already.

 

[mas985]

Orange Park, FL. Look at ridgecrest or Stonebridge area

That area does boarder open space so it is possible the NEV is from the power company but it is nearly impossible to prove and they are usually not much help anyway.

 

[AL2K]

That area does boarder open space so it is possible the NEV is from the power company but it is nearly impossible to prove and they are usually not much help anyway.

Didn’t seem like the PC electrician wanted to dive any deeper. I’ll concentrate on the known bonding issues and post my findings.

Mark, I appreciate your help.

 

[AL2K]

So… today I was able to cut out the ladder anchors, and learned that the bonding loop is intact but was corroded away from both anchors. I also learned that this slab has the fiber reinforcement… not rebar. I have some continuity to each handrail from the ladder area but I’m afraid they both may have a similar corroded connection, like the ladder anchors. Gonna look into cutting/chipping out the handrails, which aren’t clamped in. They’re cemented in, so I assume there’s a bonding clamp below the surface of the concrete. Once I’m confident the bonding loop is good, I’ll get the handrails and ladder reinstalled. Hopefully this is a good plan. I don’t want to chase house ground issues until I’m positive that the bonding grid is good. Maybe it’ll solve or at least hide the “tingle.”

 

[mas985]

The purpose of the bonding is to make everything around the pool the same potential so even if there is NEV, it won't cause shocks.

 

[AL2K]

Started working my way into the concrete around one of the handrails. Unfortunately, these rails aren’t installed into the clamp-type anchors. I immediately uncovered a bonding wire, just below the surface, that seems to route downward into the slab. ‘Looks like it may be attached below both of the uprights. (Maybe a base plate?) Looking for old installation images to get an idea of what I’m dealing with… no luck. I hope to uncover more of the bonding attach points and maybe the high resistance connections will be obvious. I’d use the angle grinder but I’m afraid I would cut through a bonding wire. Using air chisel instead.

I’ll add some pics when I figure out how to re-size them properly.

 

[AL2K]

Definitely not having fun with this project. It’s looking like there are bad bonding connections to the loop in a few places. Since the handrails are set in poured concrete, (no bonded anchors), it’s not clear where those connections to the loop are located. I’d have to bust up a lot of cool deck/concrete, and hope to find where the conductors meet.

I can remove the ladder and handrails and replace with non-metallic. That wouldn’t be ideal because I’d be hiding a known bonding issue.

I wonder if I can bury new #8 AWG around the slab and make the needed connections? Add grounding rods?

Also thinking about stretching out extension cords to resemble the loop, and tying in the ladder contacts and handrails… then check for the tingle.

Lots of “thinking out loud” here. The wheels are turning… slowly.

 

[mas985]

Definitely not having fun with this project. It’s looking like there are bad bonding connections to the loop in a few places. Since the handrails are set in poured concrete, (no bonded anchors), it’s not clear where those connections to the loop are located. I’d have to bust up a lot of cool deck/concrete, and hope to find where the conductors meet.

Odd they would not have anchors for the railings. Can you drill straight down through the railing hole into the dirt and sideways from the concrete edge, through the dirt, to fish a wire into the railing hole?

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I can remove the ladder and handrails and replace with non-metallic. That wouldn’t be ideal because I’d be hiding a known bonding issue.

Yea but it would solve the problem much easier than trying to fish a bonding wire into the railing hole

I wonder if I can bury new #8 AWG around the slab and make the needed connections? Add grounding rods?

Adding ground rods won't help because the earth potential is different than the bonding grid (home neutral/ground). Plus grounding rods have resistance (~25 ohms per 8ft rod) anyway so the potential will remain in the bonding grid unless you had dozens of rods.

Also thinking about stretching out extension cords to resemble the loop, and tying in the ladder contacts and handrails… then check for the tingle.

Is there anywhere near the pool where you can see the bonding wire?

 

[AL2K]

If I have enough of the handrail exposed below the deck surface, I’d be able to fish a wire to a bonding clamp. Not sure if connecting it to the known good wire will make up for the other loop resistance/bad connections.

I can see the wire that comes from the slab and goes to the motor chassis. I can also see the wire at both of the ladder holes. The rest of it is surrounded by the slab. The one good connection(handrail) is the one that passes the tingle. I understand that if I can get good connection/continuity throughout the entire loop, it should solve the issue. Just not sure if I can find the lugs or bypass what’s in the slab with a new loop tucked in, under the edge of the slab. If the handrails were installed in the usual anchors, I’d probably be done by now. It’s been mid-90’s lately so I only get a little done each day.

 

[AL2K]

98* out so i spent some time in the pool… more troubleshooting. Since I have high resistance from point to point on the bonding loop, I thought I could stretch out some extension cords, in an attempt to duplicate the loop. I clamped the ground conductor to the handrails and the ladder contacts. I also clamped a run of #8 awg from the “non-tingle” handrail to the wire that leads back to the motor chassis. All that did was allow both handrails to give the shock.

I then ran the loose end of the #8, which is clamped to the main chassis wire, and submerged it in the pool. No more tingle. This tells me that all of the effort it took to install the water bond fitting before the pump, was a waste of time. Maybe because it’s at least 30’ from the pool? Dunno. ‘Removed the loose end of the #8 from the pool water… tingle is back.

So, if the loop was in good shape, I assume the ladder would bond the water the same as the loose end of the #8. Tomorrow, I’ll clamp a section of wire to the ladder loop and see if that helps. I’m willing to bury new #8 around the entire pool deck if it’ll solve the problem. For now, fingers crossed that the ladder will bring the water to the same voltage potential as the hand rails. With the bad continuity readings, I’m doubtful it’ll solve the problem.

 

[mas985]

98* out so i spent some time in the pool… more troubleshooting. Since I have high resistance from point to point on the bonding loop, I thought I could stretch out some extension cords, in an attempt to duplicate the loop. I clamped the ground conductor to the handrails and the ladder contacts. I also clamped a run of #8 awg from the “non-tingle” handrail to the wire that leads back to the motor chassis. All that did was allow both handrails to give the shock.

Do you happen to have a water leak in the pool? That can create a potential difference between the water and bond and it can be very localized to the leak. This is not uncommon in vinyl pools especially around stairs, skimmers and returns. If you fix the leak, you can fix the shock.

 

[AL2K]

No known leak. Lots of evaporation. (Heat and wind)

Figured since the bonding loop continuity varies… one section reads 5Megohms… I needed to get to the bottom of that.