Natural Pools discussion

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Yeah, I don't think there's ANY pool scenario that benefits from that kind of leaf volume ;) I now have an inflatable dome for extended shoulder seasons...possibly over winter, we shall see. This is the first year of operation of the dome so I'll have more to report next year in terms of winter practicality ;)

But the same trees that drop that load of leaves also drop all manner of pollen, keys, debris, caterpillars, etc. throughout spring and summer and apart from a structured cleaning schedule and careful observance of water chemistry parameters via testing, eg riding the upper range of the FC in ratio to cya, I still manage to have a trouble free pool...which is quite a testament to this forum's strategy on pool management ;)

So if you speak again to the "problem pool" client, I'd be happy to share what works. I also manage well water, so have quite a few pool management tricks on tap ;)
 
Swampwoman said:
Maple keys -- whirligigs -- helicopters ... Aka The spring seedlings from maple trees that drift and spin down ;)
Click to expand...

Always fun to play with when you're a kid....

Well, back to the discussion at hand - it will be interesting to see what kind of foothold NSPs get in the United States. As far as I can tell, there's only one major NSP dealer/consortium in the US - BioNova NSP. The only municipality in the US to adopt any kind of NSP standards is Minneapolis (...which is kind of ironic given the fact that the state of Minnesota is know as "The Land of Ten Thousand Lakes" and you'd think they'd have more than enough "natural water" to deal with ;) ). Considering the cost and footprint of your basic NSP is about twice what a regular pool costs, it would be considered quite a luxury item even more so than owning a regular swimming pool is. Hard to know exactly how the long term costs would shake out given that, on the one hand, you don't need chemicals and the plumbing system is probably more efficient, but, on the other hand, the layout is more complex, plants in the regeneration zone can die or need changing and some very specialized knowledge and DIY skills need to be taught to the owner...

Of course, if you happen to develop one of these infection (see here as well), then being the owner of groovy new "natural" pool may not seem like such a good idea after all....
 
There is also 'Total Habitat' building these pools in the US.
Bio-nova is from Germany or Austria, I forget which. There is also Biotop and Aquaviva.
There are public natural pools in Germany and Austria.

The cost of a natural pool varies as much as for a conventional pool. They can be built more cheaply than a conventional pool, if the pool is built by the home owner, and they know how to do it. All very subjective of course.
The concept will work down to the size of a plunge pool, or smaller.
Teaching the new owner how to maintain their well designed natural pool is not difficult, and they don't require specalised skills any more than they do for a conventional pool, in my experience.
As I've pointed out tho, there will be lots of failures with natural pools and swimming ponds due to people not knowing how to build them well.

There is a possibility for the 'brain eating bug' to exist in a poorly constructed natural pool or swimming pond.
Just as there is a possibility for the amoeba to live in any river or lake, poorly maintained/chlorinated swimming pool, hot spring etc. Deaths have occurred all around the world from Naegleria fowleri.
I've even read of a death from Naegleria fowleri by someone using a neti pot.
 
I've been meaning to visit this one https://www.minneapolisparks.org/activities__events/water_activities/webber_natural_swimming_pool/ as it is only 20 miles from where I live. I'd like to do a bacterial plate count test on it just for fun, though it would be pretty meaningless. When I was a kid, I swam in lakes where the water was completely green due to farm fertilizer and manure runoff, not to mention that they probably had plenty of giardia and other nasty stuff from fish poo. Maybe that's why I rarely ever get sick.

Maybe the real answer is genetically modified frogs, fish, snakes, and geese that have bactericidal droppings.
 
Aqua Lab Rat said:
I've been meaning to visit this one https://www.minneapolisparks.org/activities__events/water_activities/webber_natural_swimming_pool/ as it is only 20 miles from where I live. I'd like to do a bacterial plate count test on it just for fun
Click to expand...

Look out! They're coming!
Is that the first public natural pool in the US?

To get any sort of real idea as to what is happening biologically in a natural pool, many tests would need to be carried out. A single test will show quite a lot of bacterial life. Testing for a specific bacteria or virus could be like looking for a needle in a haystack. The bacteria or virus could be present in one area of the system, immobile attached to a surface, and not show in a test. A thorough testing regime of several tests from several places in the system done on a regular basis might show very high water quality from an E.coli/virus point of view, yet a human to human contamination could still occur due to circumstance. The presence of fecal matter as indicated by a test for E.coli doesn't mean a person will get sick if they happen to consume said fecal matter. It depends on whether the fecal matter carries pathogens.
A human contracting an illness from fish poo is is quite rare, as far as I'm aware.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
ME 109 said:
A human contracting an illness from fish poo is is quite rare, as far as I'm aware.
Click to expand...

Rare, but when going to the Boundary Waters in northern MN lakes, campers pack water filtration and/or purification equipment specifically to avoid giardia. As an aside, I can tell you that pre-sweetened Kool-Aid made with ice-cold, filtered northern MN lake water is delightful when canoeing.
 
I no longer drink water from my favorite trout streams in North East Victoria, Australia. Even though the streams are quite pristine in the upper reaches, rain water runoff from natural bush land and farm land can wash all sorts of nasties into the stream.

In the case of a natural pool, there should be no surface water runoff entering the system. This prevents a lot of potential contamination, and ensures the bio filtration aspect remains stable, and is able to function without fluctuating water chemistry.

As far as biological stability in my pool is concerned, I would say it is a trouble free pool because I do nothing, or add anything, to influence the water.
My pool maintenance is higher than conventional pools with infloor cleaning and pool robots etc, but that's the way it is. I manually vacuum the pool as required to remove algae and leaves etc, and manually clean my fine filtration as required with service intervals anywhere from every three weeks to four months, depending on the time of year.
My natural pool is always 'open'
 
One major problem with natural pools and any discussion on this forum is regulatory. While the vast majority of the world does not regulate private residential pools, their are apparently a few places that do. California for example requires all pools open to the public to have some form of chemical sanitation. So do most US states. Some locations require that private residential pools be sanitized. California requires that all pools not create a nuisance like mosquito breeding. That often requires chemical control although natural solutions do exist and work.

While we all like the idea of natural pools, I think its not appropriate to discuss on this forum. There is no accepted protocol for caring for or maintaining them. Its difficult to even talk about them and give advice concerning them in part because there are no testing or other parameters. Its just difficult.

One area of risk is calling something a "natural" pool. When you go swimming in the creek, you accept the risk of what is there. I've taken lots of cub scouts and boy scouts swimming in lakes and creeks. The Bunnell Cascade at Moraine Dome on the Merced River above Yosemite Valley (Half Dome Sep 12: Bunnell Cascade - YouTube ) is one of the great swimming holes in the world. There is a known level of risk that is greater than a swimming pool. But if you say "pool" or "natural swimming pool" you create an entirely different impression. Its a swimming pool right -- so its safer? And while a natural sanitizing system may work, its almost invariability going to take more time than a chemically based system.

All this rambling just leads me to the conclusion that while these pools are a niche and are not for the average Shelia who just wants her pool clear and her husband occupied.
 
I'd like to think that the forums I visit and participate in are sufficiently open minded, to take interest in what is developing in closely related fields. Particularly when those developments can come from a single person, as well as international interests.
There are many people who are very interested in the natural pool/swimming pond concept, but know very little about them. I can offer over ten years first hand design, development, construction and testing.
My pool never has mosquitoes. Mosquitoes do not prefer the habitat conditions created in at least my systems.

My pool is 100% unsanitised. I'm not aware of any natural sanitisation.

Natural pools are certainly not ideal for everyone and some people really need a sanitised pool. Many people don't want anything to do with their pool other than swim in it, and have them serviced by others. Nothing wrong with that. Others take a very proactive role in servicing their pool themselves, like most of the members here, and others pull their hair out, lol.

A natural pool is a living, growing habitat obviously built by someone, so its not a natural thing. But what happens in a well built natural pool system with the aid of a pump, is naturally occurring. Sort of a 'you build it, they will come' situation, and are quite intriguing to those that are interested.
In Australia, natural pools are considered 'swimming pools' in every state and territory and will need to comply with every 'Australian standard' as for conventional swimming pool construction.
My local council has approved my pool for swimming.

I'd like to think I can be accepted here and not seen as someone from the dark side.:D
 
ME 109 said:
I'd like to think that the forums I visit and participate in are sufficiently open minded, to take interest in what is developing in closely related fields.
.
.
.
I'd like to think I can be accepted here and not seen as someone from the dark side.:D
Click to expand...

No worries mate, we know you're not looking to start trouble. If we seem a bit prickly it's not because we don't like a good, honest discussion, it's just that this is a forum dedicated to helping pool owners operate their pools in the most trouble-free way possible. TFP has developed a very concise set of principles and practices that achieves that end and we're not here to argue about that (but we're always open to looking at new ideas). What TFP teaches, works and we have over a decade of combined experience and proven, real-world data that shows what TFP teaches is truly trouble-free pool maintenance. No one here has any real experience with NSPs, so all we can do when someone posts questions about them is to say we really don't do that here and they should look to a different resource. NSPs are really just a novelty item to most of us.

We welcome folks with lots of diverse opinions and only ask that you follow our guidelines and code of conduct when posting. Part of that code is not using this site as a forum to promote your own business or to argue with the general philosophy of TFP. TFP is not your personal soapbox. We are always happy to entertain new ideas but we also owe it to our community to weed out the quackery and pseudo-science that tends to thrive so easily on the inter-webs. Our mods and experts are excellent and will not allow bold claims and suspect "facts" go unchallenged. We are a fact-based forum that deals in science, not magic. If you make a claim, be prepared to back it up with solid scientific evidence and demonstrable data.

So, if you wish to hang around and share what you've learned and practiced over the years, feel free to do so. You'll find many people on this forum interested in new and novel ideas.

Welcome :wave:
 
gwegan said:
The Bunnell Cascade at Moraine Dome on the Merced River above Yosemite Valley (Half Dome Sep 12: Bunnell Cascade - YouTube ) is one of the great swimming holes in the world.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hijack but you don't see this mentioned too often. We have backpacked from tuolumne to the valley via halfdome twice and that cascade is incredible, the smooth granite is almost like a pool, and the current a giant swim jet, cold though. Last I was there was 1999. You must have been later in the year as the water flow is lower, I guess I should look at the date of the vid!
 
That's somebody else's vid and yeah the water flow is low there. When my sons were much younger we would just lie on the granite "beach" for most of the afternoon.

ME 109 I didn't mean to make you feel attacked, as Matt states above the experts and Mods are concerned about folks coming on a misconstruing what is said. From a knowledge standpoint , I relish learning about alternative pool systems I just get concerned about having it get mixed with the run of the mill pool issues we deal with every day. My post was in part to remind folks that this might not work for them or may have some legal issues.

So stick around
 
I don't know if anyone noticed this but I found a little piece of information very interesting.

ME 109 records a pH of 7.5 with a total Alkalinity of 17mg/L without any intervention.

TFP recommends targeting much lower TA values than your average LPS, the instructions on a recent pH kit purchase recommend a TA of 120 - 150ppm for vinyl... Why would they suggest that... So we can hop on the acid pH seesaw.

I have always thought that the TFP recommended TA target values are more closely related to that of natural fresh water systems than the traditional pool shop recommendations.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply