- Jun 7, 2017
- 9,153
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
Both of those numbers are not too bad. Do you need the plaster replaced? Generally you can get 15 years out of it.
My pool contractor wants to repair a horizontal crack in my tile by injecting hydraulic cement. Is this done?
- Thread starter Kim L
- Start date
Both of those numbers are not too bad. Do you need the plaster replaced? Generally you can get 15 years out of it.
This does not include removing the coping and stabilizing or replacing the bond beam. It does not address the lack of an expansion joint.
Now, it comes down to what you can negotiate with the builder.
If you can’t reach an agreement, then you would probably need a qualified professional to evaluate your situation and give a written opinion.
Maybe that would persuade the builder or you will have to take other measures to force the issue.
If you can’t reach an agreement, then you would probably need a qualified professional to evaluate your situation and give a written opinion.
Maybe that would persuade the builder or you will have to take other measures to force the issue.
Charlie Bezzina
Well-known member
- Jul 10, 2021
- 176
- Pool Size
- 38000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-9)
Hi. From looking at the two photos in the op It looks like the screed has separated from the bond beam to me. Where I am, that would not even be considered structural. Is the crack above the normal waterline? If so, that may not even be considered a leak.
I think you should get independent professional advice before you burn your bridges with the builder. The builder might decide not to accept any of the repair costs.
I do hope you can get to a good outcome.
I think you should get independent professional advice before you burn your bridges with the builder. The builder might decide not to accept any of the repair costs.
I do hope you can get to a good outcome.
Can you define "Screed"?
In any case, it's a broken bond beam.
The tile goes on the bond beam, especially matted tile with multiple pieces.
How are you going to set matted tile above the bond beam?
It's not mortar for the stones.
The mortar won't be that thick.
Charlie Bezzina
Well-known member
- Jul 10, 2021
- 176
- Pool Size
- 38000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-9)
Hi James.
screed refers to the mortar bedding that goes on top of the bond beam to get the height and grade correct before coping tiles are glued down.
screed refers to the mortar bedding that goes on top of the bond beam to get the height and grade correct before coping tiles are glued down.
The bond beam should be very close to the perfect height and level to accept the coping with minimal mortar.
Ideally thinset or a very thin layer of mortar should be used.
In any case, the top has been pushed and broken by the force from the deck due to a lack of an expansion joint.
The coping should be removed and all of the loose concrete should be removed and redone.
Ideally thinset or a very thin layer of mortar should be used.
In any case, the top has been pushed and broken by the force from the deck due to a lack of an expansion joint.
The coping should be removed and all of the loose concrete should be removed and redone.
Charlie Bezzina
Well-known member
- Jul 10, 2021
- 176
- Pool Size
- 38000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-9)
Hi James.
The bond beam is never perfect. If it were, there would be no need for the mortar bedding. The mortar bedding on my pool is between 20 mm to 30 mm (around an inch let's say). I know from experience the tile adhesive bonds to the mortar bedding much stronger than the mortar bedding bonds to the bond beam (because I had to replace a coping tile and the screed pulled up with it)
The bond beam is never perfect. If it were, there would be no need for the mortar bedding. The mortar bedding on my pool is between 20 mm to 30 mm (around an inch let's say). I know from experience the tile adhesive bonds to the mortar bedding much stronger than the mortar bedding bonds to the bond beam (because I had to replace a coping tile and the screed pulled up with it)
It's more than an inch.
In any case, it does not matter if it is the screed or the bond beam.
The solution is still the same, pull it up and redo it.
Charlie Bezzina
Well-known member
- Jul 10, 2021
- 176
- Pool Size
- 38000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-9)
It might matter to the op if it is the screed or the bond beam.
The bond beam is integral part of the structure of the pool shell. The screed is not. Therefore the lifetime warranty mentioned may or may not apply...
The bond beam is integral part of the structure of the pool shell. The screed is not. Therefore the lifetime warranty mentioned may or may not apply...
This falls under Professional Liability Insurance (also known as errors and omissions (E&O) insurance).
There was a mistake and/or omission in the design and construction of the deck and pool due to the lack of an expansion joint, which caused the damage.
Regardless if the damage is to the bond beam or screed, the damage is due to a professional mistake or negligence.
Each state has specific rules about construction defects.
So, you have to do some research on your jurisdiction to determine what remedies you might have available and what timelines you have to consider.
There was a mistake and/or omission in the design and construction of the deck and pool due to the lack of an expansion joint, which caused the damage.
Regardless if the damage is to the bond beam or screed, the damage is due to a professional mistake or negligence.
Each state has specific rules about construction defects.
So, you have to do some research on your jurisdiction to determine what remedies you might have available and what timelines you have to consider.
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Thank you all for your consideration of this matter.
Yesterday we pulled up a paver adjacent to an area where the crack in the tile was exposed. We cleared out about 6 inches of the sand and gravel to expose the outside of the bond beam. There were no discernible cracks. I ran a hose on the inside of then pool on the crack and sure enough the water came through between the bottom of the coping mortar and the top of the bond beam. I also observed cracking of the some joints between the coping indicating movement. Since it isn't the bond beam would injection of hydraulic cement be adequate or does the coping need to be removed? It is obvious an expansion joint is needed in the deck. What material would be used for this?
Yesterday we pulled up a paver adjacent to an area where the crack in the tile was exposed. We cleared out about 6 inches of the sand and gravel to expose the outside of the bond beam. There were no discernible cracks. I ran a hose on the inside of then pool on the crack and sure enough the water came through between the bottom of the coping mortar and the top of the bond beam. I also observed cracking of the some joints between the coping indicating movement. Since it isn't the bond beam would injection of hydraulic cement be adequate or does the coping need to be removed? It is obvious an expansion joint is needed in the deck. What material would be used for this?
The crack probably goes at an angle through the bond beam.
Injection will probably "mostly" stabilize it.
Ideally, all loose material should be removed and replaced.
Injection will probably "mostly" stabilize it.
Ideally, all loose material should be removed and replaced.
I measured the depth of the mortar and the depth of the crack and they appear equal which leads me to believe the bond beam is not cracked but the coping has shifted. I am checking. It seems that there is a 5 year statute of limitations on design defects, but I have not been able to determine if it is from the date of installation or the date it could reasonably be discovered. In any case, I will request the builder contact his E&O and put them on notice of the problem.
If the builder denies responsibility, you will probably need a qualified expert to give a written opinion of what the damage is, what caused it and what the correct repair is including costs.
They would also have to establish that the cause of the damage was due to the contractor’s failure to follow good accepted industry standard practice including some sort of reference material.
issuu.com
ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools
Published on Mar 1, 2020
This standard applies to permanently installed residential inground swimming pools intended for noncommercial use as a swimming pool by not more than three owner families and their guests and exceeding 24 in. (61 cm) in water depth.
www.phta.org
They would also have to establish that the cause of the damage was due to the contractor’s failure to follow good accepted industry standard practice including some sort of reference material.
ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools
This standard applies to permanently installed residential inground swimming pools intended for noncommercial use as a swimming pool by not more than three owner families and their guests and exceeding 24 in. (61 cm) in water depth. EXCEPTION: Separate ponds, fountains, decorative water...
ANSI/APSP/ICC-5 2011 American National Standard for Residential Inground Swimming Pools
Published on Mar 1, 2020
This standard applies to permanently installed residential inground swimming pools intended for noncommercial use as a swimming pool by not more than three owner families and their guests and exceeding 24 in. (61 cm) in water depth.
Purchase or Read PHTA Standards
Codes, standards, and regulations vary between jurisdictions, which can make them complicated to navigate, but compliance is critical. Understanding and applying the rules and regulations which govern industry activities prov
www.phta.org
Another issue to consider is that coping, tile and plaster are all expected to need to be replaced at some point.
However, I don’t know of a reference that specifies any minimum expected lifetime.
In my opinion, the minimum should be 10 and the ideal is 20 years.
Going by the minimum, you have already received 8 years, so that’s 80% of the minimum expected life.
If they did tile, plaster and coping, they might give you a 20% discount for the tile and coping.
The plaster is ok, so they might not want to give any discount there.
The bond beam repair should be on them as that is not expected to fail.
Adding an expansion joint should also be on them as it should have been included in the original build.
However, I don’t know of a reference that specifies any minimum expected lifetime.
In my opinion, the minimum should be 10 and the ideal is 20 years.
Going by the minimum, you have already received 8 years, so that’s 80% of the minimum expected life.
If they did tile, plaster and coping, they might give you a 20% discount for the tile and coping.
The plaster is ok, so they might not want to give any discount there.
The bond beam repair should be on them as that is not expected to fail.
Adding an expansion joint should also be on them as it should have been included in the original build.
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If you use 15 years as an expected life, they might give you a 47% discount on redoing the tile and coping (7/15).
At 8 years, you should not expect to have these problems.
In my opinion, the builder should be willing to give a 20 to 47% discount on the tile parts and labor.
The coping can be reused, so a 20 to 47% discount on the labor to redo the coping.
The bond beam repair should be covered.
The expansion joint should be covered.
At 8 years, you should not expect to have these problems.
In my opinion, the builder should be willing to give a 20 to 47% discount on the tile parts and labor.
The coping can be reused, so a 20 to 47% discount on the labor to redo the coping.
The bond beam repair should be covered.
The expansion joint should be covered.
The problem with injecting epoxy or hydraulic cement into the cracks is that the cracks are pretty thin and the injected liquid will need to be thin as well.
Since the crack is at an angle, the liquid will likely flow back out unless they can find a way to keep it in without dripping out.
Also, if you use any significant pressure, the coping is likely to lift due to the hydraulics.
In my opinion, injection will likely result in only a superficial depth.
If you can go around the entire pool and tap lightly with the plastic handle of a screwdriver, you can listen for the sound to tell which coping stones are well bonded and which are substantially unbonded.
The unbonded stones will sound hollow.
All unbonded stones should be removed and cleaned of mortar and grout.
The bond beam should be cleaned of all loose material and then the coping should reinstalled onto clean bond beam.
A full depth expansion joint should be installed at the pool and at the other side of the deck if the deck is against a solid barrier like a wall.
Since the crack is at an angle, the liquid will likely flow back out unless they can find a way to keep it in without dripping out.
Also, if you use any significant pressure, the coping is likely to lift due to the hydraulics.
In my opinion, injection will likely result in only a superficial depth.
If you can go around the entire pool and tap lightly with the plastic handle of a screwdriver, you can listen for the sound to tell which coping stones are well bonded and which are substantially unbonded.
The unbonded stones will sound hollow.
All unbonded stones should be removed and cleaned of mortar and grout.
The bond beam should be cleaned of all loose material and then the coping should reinstalled onto clean bond beam.
A full depth expansion joint should be installed at the pool and at the other side of the deck if the deck is against a solid barrier like a wall.