Mineral system with SWG

[Abnaxis]

I don’t think the OP is a challenging TFP.
Seems the challenge is towards the fact we oppose alternative methods and in that the OP has a point: the advice should be more towards the facts we don’t believe in mineral system, we know metals above certain concentrations cause stains, copper tints blond hair and fingernails green, Chlorine alone can keep a crystal clear sanitary pool with minimal effort and lowest costs possible and chlorine is as safe as it can be (all “downsides” of chlorine are due to improper use).

What I’m curious is why the OP would ask so fiercely about mineral systems? The only reasonable explanation I can see (and I’m asking because I may have missed the point) is that the OP believes chlorine is somehow bad, what would go directly against the peer-reviewed motto.

It's more like a combination of things. First, I like to tinker with thought experiments, and if you show me a thing that is "useless," the first place my brain will go will be to try to figure if there's some way to get a silver lining or edge-case use out of it.

Note that the OP is a prime example of this--I've read enough (and been adjhacent to the medical research community long enough) that any product being sold that starts with "natural" or "chemical free" marketing give me an instinctive eye-roll, but I'm still curious if there's not some way I can edge out a little more life from my metallic components or somehow make the SWG more optimal from an engineering standpoint with a mineral system (you didn't see me sit down with a calculator to figure out if the KWh saved by running the SWG is worth it for a mineral system, but I did and it isn't).

Second, one of the best ways I've found to learn about new things is play sort of devils advocate with someone who is passionately for or against them. I do this IRL all the time, though it's easier to be more passive/more encouraging of discourse in person than it is online.

And third, I was hoping to goad someone into linking me some reading material that has some science in it because I really do trust science more than message boards--or rather, I trust myself to be able to interpret scientific results for what they're worth. Science doesn't generate proofs, it generates evidence.

 

[Newdude]

And third, I was hoping to goad someone into linking me some reading material

Alright I went further down the rabbit hole than I care to admit. All I found was a WHO report stating what we've already discussed, that both metals have properties to help but can't help on their own. (And the WHO could care less if your pool has a Statue of Liberty hue of green to it from the copper), and US government report saying that they had not been shown enough evidence to support them as a sanitizer.

What I did find however......... here me out......... Solar. Ionizers. No chemicals, nothing to buy (except electodes), no electricity

Up to 45k gallons for $129. Here I spent $1500 for the SWG for my build like a sucker.

Amazon.com : EAAZPOOL Solar Pool Ionizer - High Capacity | 85% Less Chlorine | Pool Cleaning Device | Backed by 1 Year Warranty | Kill Algae | Longer-Lasting Copper Anode | 25% More Ions | Up to 45, 000 Gal : Garden & Outdoor

 

[Newdude]

This was a funny anecdote from ecosmarte

Are pool ionizers safe?

A. Not only are they safe, but the minerals used for pool water purification are recognized as essential minerals to the body. Normal concentration in pools and hot tubs is about 1/3 the amount allowed by the Environmental Protection Agency for drinking water.


Sooooooooooooo, I fill the pool from my hose and it already has 3X the copper/silver that the ecosmarte system produces ?

 

[AK-]

And third, I was hoping to goad someone into linking me some reading material that has some science in it

In The Deep End you can find several posts by ChemGeek. In many of those post you will be able to find either chemical explanations from someone with a background in chemistry or links to scientific papers. Very interesting stuff, but definitely not for the average pool owner…

 

[Newdude]

I tuned green from the manufactures recommendations alone. Just thinking about the rashes made me itch.

0-20 ppm CYA
.5 -1.5 ppm FC

We can barely get new folks to test/add every day, they'd need to test every half hour with little/no CYA. In a hot climate they would need to test/add every 10 minutes. These pools will be at zero FC almost all the time and whenever the unsuspecting owner tests it they will think 'oh well, it's a bit low...... good thing I don't *need* as much as everybody else.'

 

[AK-]

I tuned green from the manufactures recommendations alone. Just thinking about the rashes made me itch.

0-20 ppm CYA
.5 -1.5 ppm FC

We can barely get new folks to test/add every day, they'd need to test every half hour with little/no CYA. In a hot climate they would need to test/add every 10 minutes. These pools will be at zero FC almost all the time and whenever the unsuspecting owner tests it they will think 'oh well, it's a bit low...... good thing I don't *need* as much as everybody else.'

And when the algae inevitably blooms and the owner tries to sue the manufacturer they are going to point that the owner let the FC drift to 0ppm and will have dozen specialists testifying that the algae is due lack of care by the pool owner rather than the absurdity of their product.

 

[Newdude]

And when the algae inevitably blooms

My kids got the green hair and rashes in a matter of 2 weeks at a friend's house before they pulled the plug. I imagine an algae swamp would have ensued but it never got that far.

@Abnaxis I forgot to mention that I have personal experience with these systems when used as directed and it's not good. Am I biased until they are massively changed ? Probably. Am I wrong ? No.

 

[Abnaxis]

I tuned green from the manufactures recommendations alone. Just thinking about the rashes made me itch.

0-20 ppm CYA
.5 -1.5 ppm FC

We can barely get new folks to test/add every day, they'd need to test every half hour with little/no CYA. In a hot climate they would need to test/add every 10 minutes. These pools will be at zero FC almost all the time and whenever the unsuspecting owner tests it they will think 'oh well, it's a bit low...... good thing I don't *need* as much as everybody else.'

FWIW we literally spent the first 4 months in dermatologists offices trying to figure out skin lesions my son developed 2 days after he was born. They eventually went away, and ever since then it's been almost constant rashes and dry skin. He LOVES being in the water though (at least streams/lakes).

I am going to be watching the chemistry of this thing like a HAWK for the foreseeable future, until I'm comfortable it's as skin friendly as I can make it. No stone unturned, devouring every bit of info I can get my hands on

 

[Newdude]

I am going to be watching the chemistry of this thing like a HAWK for the foreseeable future, until I'm comfortable it's as skin friendly as I can make it. No stone unturned, devouring every bit of info I can get my hands on

Many members here with skin issues have found salt to be much better for them. At my pool. It was a few friends that couldn't swim anywhere but my house, so although it wasn't my family's ordeal, I did see it firsthand. (Or was told about it and thanked for making it nice for them)

 

[Newdude]

Just stumbled across this. Maybe science doesn't always have the answers. Or, at least the scientists that get to name things.

 

[TheDeuce]

Alright I went further down the rabbit hole than I care to admit. All I found was a WHO report stating what we've already discussed, that both metals have properties to help but can't help on their own. (And the WHO could care less if your pool has a Statue of Liberty hue of green to it from the copper), and US government report saying that they had not been shown enough evidence to support them as a sanitizer.

What I did find however......... here me out......... Solar. Ionizers. No chemicals, nothing to buy (except electodes), no electricity

Up to 45k gallons for $129. Here I spent $1500 for the SWG for my build like a sucker.

Amazon.com : EAAZPOOL Solar Pool Ionizer - High Capacity | 85% Less Chlorine | Pool Cleaning Device | Backed by 1 Year Warranty | Kill Algae | Longer-Lasting Copper Anode | 25% More Ions | Up to 45, 000 Gal : Garden & Outdoor

I think I have one that's equally entertaining.


The Carefree Clearwater System!

100 % American device to disinfect the pools.. Bye bye chlorine..
For more information contact: 01111130953
Where this device adds 3 powerful metal elements to water (silver, copper, weight) and with specific concentrations.. it kills all kinds of bacteria, fungi and germs
Pool water sanitizes whatever size and type, small or large, in an easy and natural way, and totally relieves you from using all harmful chemical sanitizers:
Like chlorine, algae blocker, etc..
Imagine yourself swimming in natural waters or a river of rivers.. This is exactly how you will feel.
Where this device adds 3 powerful metal elements to water (silver, copper, weight) and with specific concentrations.. it kills all kinds of bacteria, fungi and germs
The features and characteristics of the device:

American Made 100 %

Easy to use, install, very small and installed at pool appliances.

Totally enriches you about all chemicals like chlorine etc.

It is refunded between one year to 3 years of expended chemicals.

gives you serenity and purity of water in a distinctive way.

Installed in lots of villas, palaces, clubs, breaks and sports centers in the Kingdom and the world and gave impressive results..

Maintains your skin, skin, and protects you and your family, God willing, from damage to chlorine and chemicals on skin, hair, skin and breathing.

you don't need to change pool water anymore.

you can use pool watering and no damage ever to the plants

No daily maintenance required (enough to test water every two weeks only once (3 minutes period) to make sure the percentage of minerals ions in water.

Available in several sizes and sizes that match the pool size
Contact Details:
Mob/whatsapp: +201111130953
Website: Home - CareFreeClearWater
Email: [email protected]
#carefree #carefreeclearwater

I shared this one in the Wowsers! thread elsewhere in this forum but I feel that everyone deserves the entertainment this advertisement provides. THREE power metal elements: silver, copper, and WEIGHT! Swimming in a river of rivers! Used in lots of palaces in the Kingdom! Protects you and your family but only if God wills it.



m.

 

[Abnaxis]

Just stumbled across this. Maybe science doesn't always have the answers. Or, at least the scientists that get to name things.
View attachment 350375

Pretty sure the closest thing to a "scientist" that named any of those would be a "natural philosopher" from the 17th century.

It might surprise you that scientists have gotten better at their jobs in the last 3-4 centuries

 

[Newdude]

It might surprise you that scientists have gotten better at their jobs in the last 3-4 centuries

Oh C’mon !!! It was funny.

 

[TheDeuce]

Hm.... no.

I'm afraid I have to shoot down all the theories. Please don't take it personally.

First, a mineral system does not mean less chlorine. No, I don't care what the companies say to try to sell their product, if someone is running 0.5 ppm FC and they have more than the tiniest bit of CYA in the water, then it is not sanitary. Metals prevent algae, they do not sanitize the water. The FC/CYA Levels is the safest and least problematic way to run the water, regardless of how much copper is in it.

Second, an SWG requires a set amount of salt to work. You don't use less salt to get less chlorine, you just run the SWG less. So you aren't reducing the amount of salt in your water.

Third, the amount of salt in a salt pool is not particularly corrosive. It's the pH level and sulfate level that really says whether pool water is corrosive to metals. As you're in Indiana and not the desert, you'll receive plenty of water throughout the summer to make sure there's no buildup of salts on the metal components outside the pool.

Fourth, if there's enough metals in the pool water that it makes the water noticeably less corrosive then you're dealing with a LOT of other very unpleasant situations. The water is likely green, staining everywhere, it would just be a mess. The levels these things operate has to straddle that line between being effective as an algaecide and low enough that they don't stain and that line is razor thin.

There's just no place in a healthy pool for metals. The manufacturers make up a lot of really great sounding marketing materials, but they are nothing but sales tactics and false claims about the horrors of chlorine. Just no good reason to use them, especially if you star the pool out right using TFPC and never have to deal with the terrible (but highly profitable) things you'd be sold by going the pool store route. Remember when I said pH and sulfates are the biggest issues regarding corrosion? Pool stores love to sell acidic chlorine tablets, sulfate containing dry acid, and sulfate containing non-chlorine shock. Yet somehow it's the saltwater that corrodes metals? Na, it's all just marketing. (the "Na" was a joke. Sodium. Ha! I'll show myself out.)

And welcome to TFP!

I would like to formally ask for permission to cut and paste this post in reply to some of the crackpot posts I'm seeing on the Facebook pool groups I take part in.



m.

 

[Donldson]

I would like to formally ask for permission to cut and paste this post in reply to some of the crackpot posts I'm seeing on the Facebook pool groups I take part in.



m.

Permission granted. Always good to have my words coming from multiple sources to obscure my real identity. Room for all the Spartacus' around here!

Though I am reminded of that scene at the beginning of Jurassic Park where Grant tells that kid how dangerous the "giant chicken" actually was and Ellie tells him that if he wanted to scare the kid he could have just pulled a gun on him. "Deuce, if you want to get kicked out of the group you can just drop an F-bomb"