Large New Pool -- Increasing CYA and FC and Decreasing pH

[PecanOrchardPool]

New pool owner that has been reading as much as I can on TFP. I just got my recommended test kit and I am still a little nervous about whether or not I am doing it all right. If you click through to my logs, please realize that the first set are probably off because I wasn’t doing it all properly (i.e. not waiting until the colors stopped changing and subtracting 1, not doing CYA outside, etc.). Second set should be closer.

I have two big things I am trying to accomplish and they are:

• Trying to get the CYA high enough that I can maintain a good FC. I am running both my SWGs at 100% and still cannot maintain a good FC. I want to be able to throttle it down especially when it gets cooler in Texas.
• I want to be able to get rid of some of the organic staining on my plaster. I have read the best way to do that is just to increase the FC? It would ‘bleach’ these dirt stains?

We have had the pool with functioning SWGs since late April and it took some time getting the salt levels right before we started making Chorine. Since then, it has been an uphill battle with CYA and maintaining Chlorine. I will say the pool water itself looks great, very clear. I have cleaned all 8 filter cartridges twice already. Once with hose only and the second time last weekend (Sept 27-28) with the hose and soaking overnight.

Based on my recent test results, I plan to add the recommended Muriatic Acid (172 oz) and that should help my pH and TA. Is that something I am going to keep having to do to maintain the pH or will it stabilize once I get the rest of the pool balanced? I feel like I add Muriatic Acid quite a bit, constantly fighting a high pH.

Next, I want to add the stabilizer to get my CYA up. I will say that I have added a LOT of conditioner since May. I was previously using Leslie’s to test my pool water and purchasing the conditioners from them. I have also used the Clorox version I found at Walmart. Per Pool Math I would need to add another 30lbs of conditioner to get to a target level of 75. I have been pouring the granular form directly into the skimmers (I have 5 skimmers). Any recommendations on how best to add it? Do I have to dilute the granular form or can I add it directly to the skimmers. Is liquid better? I don’t want to get my CYA too high especially as we head into the Fall. Does the season really matter if my pool will be in direct sunlight most of the day? We are still in the 90s air temperature here, but the in pool temperature has been an average of 85 this month.

I will stop there for now. I feel like once I get the FC, CYA and pH right I can start worrying about CH and tackle my filter, SWG, and staining questions.

I will take any tips, product recommendations, links to other threads that you may have.

TIA!

 

[setsailsoon]

Pecan,

Sounds like a great pool! I'd focus on getting your FC up and PH down asap. Use liquid chlorine to get up to the high end of target. Your nice pool can quickly go south with FC levels you have. You'll also need to get pH down below 8 as soon as possible. CYA can be increased to at least 60. It's pretty cheap to do this with granular and just put it in a sock and squeeze every day.Only takes a few days. If you have liquid it's faster just make sure it doesn't contain any minerals or other components. I'd also take the mineralizer cartridge out of the Fusion 2 if it has them. I'd focus on this 'till you get these lined out. What are your settings and run-times for the swg's? .Here are a few things to check out if you haven't already read/watched them:
Pool Care Basics


I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[Rocket J Squirrel]

Don't pour granular CYA down the skimmers. It will just lodge in the cartridge filters until it eventually dissolves. Could take many days to appear on the CYA test. Better to dissolve it directly in the pool water via the sock method. You might need a lot of socks for that size pool.

 

[PecanOrchardPool]

Thanks Chris and Rocket! Waiting until the kiddos finish swimming this eve and then plan to do the sock (knee highs since 20lbs needed ) in front of the returns starting tonight. Also plan to add the muriatic acid and liquid chlorine tonight as well. I do have a mineral cartridge in the fusion 2 and will take that out until I get the pool balanced.

Chris -- as far as the SWGs, I am still learning. As far as I can tell they are running continuously at 100% chlorinating. I am worried about this being bad, but I didn't want to turn it down until I got the chlorine up. I also see a little build up in the cells, but I will save that for another thread after I get in a better place with the pool chemicals.

 

[setsailsoon]

Thanks Chris and Rocket! Waiting until the kiddos finish swimming this eve and then plan to do the sock (knee highs since 20lbs needed ) in front of the returns starting tonight. Also plan to add the muriatic acid and liquid chlorine tonight as well. I do have a mineral cartridge in the fusion 2 and will take that out until I get the pool balanced.

Chris -- as far as the SWGs, I am still learning. As far as I can tell they are running continuously at 100% chlorinating. I am worried about this being bad, but I didn't want to turn it down until I got the chlorine up. I also see a little build up in the cells, but I will save that for another thread after I get in a better place with the pool chemicals.

Simone, I just took a closer look at your system and I see some issues. The main issue is your system does not generate enough FC to maintain recommended levels. The second issue is the mineral cartridge. We don't sell anything here so you won't get advice from us designed to sell you something. I will defer to some experts on your TruClear/Fusion2 system but if it was me, I would not want this system in my pool. Mineral systems are not recommended because they can lead to troublesome staining that's very difficult and expensive to fix not to mention you don't really know what minerals are added. Your system can only add 1.9 #/Day or 2.8 ppm FC per day at max rate 24 hr/day. During summer months you'll lose more than this just from sunlight UV degradation.

Your pool is pretty large so chlorinating is a challenge regardless of the system you use. We recommend using an swg rated for 2X the pool size. This allows you to run at about 50% power then increase each year as the FC production declines. Most systems designed this way can go 5 years or more before the cells need to be replaced with good chemical balance. In the long run you'll need 2 of the largest production swg's on the market. There are a couple that are close to 3 #/day capacity each and they will fit your needs perfectly.

Your swg is already getting deposits and this is likely due to the fact your chemicals balance is off. Getting your water chemistry within range after you address the FC/CYA and PH will help prevent this. In the meantime, if it was me I'd turn off the swg 'till you get the system balanced, keep the cartridges out and use liquid chlorine to maintain FC levels. This will take about 2 gal per day of 12% liquid chlorine. Once you get chemicals balanced within TFP ranges you'll be able to use the swg's running at 100% power all day or maybe a little less to maintain safe FC levels. That will give you some time to decide the long term solution.

I wish I had better news and I hope this is helpful. I also would like to get some of our experts chime in on your situation. They may have better ideas. @ajw22 , @JoyfulNoise , @JamesW @Texas Splash can one or more of you chime in on this please?

Chris

 

[ajw22]

Jandy TruClear specs say it is rated for 35,000 gallons. Two of them may be rated at 70,000 gallons and you say your pool is at 80,000 gallons. The math does not work even before saying a SWG should be 2X the pool size.

You need at least 120,000 to 160,000 gallons of SWG generating capacity to make a SWG work properly for your pool.

Who specified the combination of the two TruClears and the Nature2?

You need to use a commercial SWG system with multiple large cells, like three Pentair IC60s. One cell is the Master controller and the others are Slaves. Read SWG Multiple Cells - Further Reading

Also, you are being too hesitant in adjusting chemicals one at a time. Get your FC and CYA to targets ASAP.

You will continuously be adding acid with a TA of 150. If you have high TA fill water and high evaporation then that may be all you can do. I assume you have an autofill on the pool.

 

[ajw22]

Your ozone system is further contributing to your pH rise and need to add acid to lower pH.

There is no need for the ozone system and it should be powered off.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

You have a large pool with overly complicated and unnecessary equipment which complicates managing the water chemistry.

Both the Nature2 mineral system and the ozone system are unnecessary and should be removed.

The proper level of chlorine generation is all you need to keep the pool sanitary and safe.

Do you have automation? Aqualink? Nothing is listed in your profile.

 

[setsailsoon]

Your ozone system is further contributing to your pH rise and need to add acid to lower pH.

There is no need for the ozone system and it should be powered off.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Wow, I completely missed them. Good catch Allen. Simone, that's 3 issues not just 2.

 

[PecanOrchardPool]

OK. So honestly something in the back of my head was telling me something was off. I am going to need to spend some time with my contract to see what recourse I have on a design issue.

I will attach some pictures of the equipment too. In the meantime, we do not have automation because when we asked what it was we were told it was to turn on/off pool lights and the filters, which we can do manually easily so we opted against it. During pool school was told the Nature2 system was there to work in conjunction with the SWGs during the summer months when it would be harder to maintain chlorine levels. We do have autofill. The pool builder/designer was Premier Pools and Spas.

 

[setsailsoon]

OK. So honestly something in the back of my head was telling me something was off. I am going to need to spend some time with my contract to see what recourse I have on a design issue.

I will attach some pictures of the equipment too. In the meantime, we do not have automation because when we asked what it was we were told it was to turn on/off pool lights and the filters, which we can do manually easily so we opted against it. During pool school was told the Nature2 system was there to work in conjunction with the SWGs during the summer months when it would be harder to maintain chlorine levels. We do have autofill. The pool builder/designer was Premier Pools and Spas.

Simone,

So sorry to hear this. It's very likely you will have little recourse with your contract. Their definition of automation is technically correct but the benefit they describe is ludicrous to me. I did a quick check with BBB and ratings are 3.6. Not great and also not terrible so they may be willing to work with you even if the contract doesn't obligate them to do so. Manufacturers of mineral systems say they work. Of course they say this, that's how they make their business. Be prepared this is what your installer will rely on. TFP's approach is much better since I don't believe the long term impact of minerals on the plaster are worth risking and the fact I don't really know what they are putting in the water. I don't want this to take to sidetrack to a deep scientific discussion on your thread since it's well described in our Wiki references Allen posted above. I'll just add the people that created TFP recommendations are highly qualified scientists and there is no "smoke and mirrors" secret formulas. Just plain, proven science. In dealing with this issue you're going to need to decide what you want to do. As I see it you have a couple possible paths:

1. Remove the mineral cartridge (s), get the water balance right per TFP recommendations. Then start the swg and hopefully for the next year or so you can run with minimal liquid chlorine addition.
2. Replace your swg system with one properly sized using TFP recommendations for 2X sizing. Best solution for this is probably one of the commercial units Allen referenced or at least two of the larger residential offerings on the market.
3. Start with #1 and plan for #2 in the next year.
4. Do nothing and stick with the system you have. Clearly not my choice, but it's your pool and I feel for you having to make this decision.

If there's anything we can do to help you make this decision please ask and always remember we don't sell anything and that's often why our recommendations are different than you'll hear from others that do.

Regardless of the path you take know you have a full compliment of true experts in everything from advance chemistry to engineers and everything else here to support you.

Chris

 

[ajw22]

It is not hard to maintain proper chlorine levels with the correct equipment. You do not need supplements like ozone or minerals.

Your pool designers and installers were limited in their understanding of the equipment necessary for a pool of the size you built. Your pool size is larger than residential pool equipment is designed for. Commercial pools of your size use different equipment.

You don’t need automation and I wanted to confirm what you have. In some ways not having automation means you do not need to worry about equipment compatibility.

Fixing your equipment issues will not cost much except walking away from sunken costs:

• Disconnect and remove the ozone system
• Remove the Nature2 mineral cartridges and boxes
• Replace the TruClear SWGs with Pentair or Hayward commercial SWG properly sized.

Only the SWG replacement is a significant cost. The equipment removals are just installing some straight PVC pipe where the boxes were.

Overall this will greatly simplify your pool and make it more easily manageable going forward. And it will reduce your cost of ownership and maintenance.

You may want to consider installing an acid dosing system to deal with your high TA fill water.

 

[ajw22]

What is this MDV box? Is this part of the ozone system?

 

[PecanOrchardPool]

What is this MDV box? Is this part of the ozone system?

View attachment 612817

Yes, that is what I was told.

 

[PecanOrchardPool]

Simone,

So sorry to hear this. It's very likely you will have little recourse with your contract. Their definition of automation is technically correct but the benefit they describe is ludicrous to me. I did a quick check with BBB and ratings are 3.6. Not great and also not terrible so they may be willing to work with you even if the contract doesn't obligate them to do so. Manufacturers of mineral systems say they work. Of course they say this, that's how they make their business. Be prepared this is what your installer will rely on. TFP's approach is much better since I don't believe the long term impact of minerals on the plaster are worth risking and the fact I don't really know what they are putting in the water. I don't want this to take to sidetrack to a deep scientific discussion on your thread since it's well described in our Wiki references Allen posted above. I'll just add the people that created TFP recommendations are highly qualified scientists and there is no "smoke and mirrors" secret formulas. Just plain, proven science. In dealing with this issue you're going to need to decide what you want to do. As I see it you have a couple possible paths:

1. Remove the mineral cartridge (s), get the water balance right per TFP recommendations. Then start the swg and hopefully for the next year or so you can run with minimal liquid chlorine addition.
2. Replace your swg system with one properly sized using TFP recommendations for 2X sizing. Best solution for this is probably one of the commercial units Allen referenced or at least two of the larger residential offerings on the market.
3. Start with #1 and plan for #2 in the next year.
4. Do nothing and stick with the system you have. Clearly not my choice, but it's your pool and I feel for you having to make this decision.

If there's anything we can do to help you make this decision please ask and always remember we don't sell anything and that's often why our recommendations are different than you'll hear from others that do.

Regardless of the path you take know you have a full compliment of true experts in everything from advance chemistry to engineers and everything else here to support you.

Chris

Right now I am starting with 1 above and then will need to figure out what to do next. I have done everything suggested in starting to get the water balanced. Turned off SWGs, added muriatic acid, stabilizer and chlorine. Ran into a snag getting the mineral cartridge out. It seems the cartridge top is part of the equipment... taking it out leaves an exposed hole since the top of the cartridge sticks out (if that makes sense). I also just have one of those attached to the filter with 3 skimmers (vs the one with 2).

 

[ajw22]

IntelliChlor® Salt Chlorine Generator for Commercial Pools

View the Commercial Pool Water Treatment and Sanitizers offering from Pentair here. From Chlorine Feeders to Generators, Pentair has your commercial pool needs covered.

www.pentair.com

Ignore the Pool Volume guidelines. They are for commercial pools with high bather loads. A -6 or -8 system will be fine for your residential pool.

 

[ajw22]

Right now I am starting with 1 above and then will need to figure out what to do next. I have done everything suggested in starting to get the water balanced. Turned off SWGs, added muriatic acid, stabilizer and chlorine.

There is no reason to turn off the SWGs. Let it give you as much chlorine as it can and then supplement with liquid chlorine.

You might as well use what you paid for in chlorine generation.

Ran into a snag getting the mineral cartridge out. It seems the cartridge top is part of the equipment... taking it out leaves an exposed hole since the top of the cartridge sticks out (if that makes sense). I also just have one of those attached to the filter with 3 skimmers (vs the one with 2).

Nature2 Fusion - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Use a hacksaw to cut off the blue mineral cartridge, to continue to use the orange cap.

 

[PecanOrchardPool]

There is no reason to turn off the SWGs. Let it give you as much chlorine as it can and then supplement with liquid chlorine.

You might as well use what you paid for in chlorine generation.

Nature2 Fusion - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Use a hacksaw to cut off the blue mineral cartridge, to continue to use the orange cap.

Thank you! I will give this a shot and report back.

 

[setsailsoon]

I agree with Allen, if you're going to get the system re-done running flat out to get the most you can makes sense. Just also add liquid chlorine to get up to recommended levels and stay there. While you're getting the install done right last thing you need to deal with is an algae bloom.

 

[PecanOrchardPool]

Quick update for those who want to know I have a good handle on the CYA and the FC right now. CYA steady at 70 and my FC is just heading up and up. I am now just making small adjustments in my SWG % and the Chlorinator to get it to best practice levels. I am basically following the suggestions from Chris and am sticking with number 1, trying to get my pool within the TFP suggested levels. If I can get there with the existing systems I will go with that, mostly since this was a huge investment for us. If I can't, then I will explore other options without voiding current pool and equipment warranties. Pool is only 6 months old.

Will start a new thread on my ph and TA issues and asking for suggestions

Thank you all so much for your advice, I am taking it all in and learning so much.