Is there a non-TFP method that makes sense?

[SoDel]

There are some people that don’t want daily, or close to it, pool care. There are some people that don’t want to consume the pool school and learn the chemistry, or even basics, to ensure their pool is balanced. And that’s fine.

So is there a non-TFP model that makes sense for these people?

From a pool store or product perspective all the chemicals are generic and you can’t patent (bleach, acid, etc.). So they’re forced to market magic potions which are a mixture of things you can get at the grocery store. And none of the combinations are stable enough for the average user. There aren’t any ways to extend chlorine addition without adding CYA or CH.

Pool Companies are in the same boat. The average monthly cost for weekly care is what $150-200? How could you possibly effectively treat a pool and make a profit with the TFP method at that competitive price? It’s no surprise that they cut corners, they need to make money.

So it begs the question, is there a non-TFP method that makes sense? How can you own a pool if you aren’t willing to dedicate the effort (as minimal as it is) to its care?

Curious to hear people’s thoughts, it seems like everyone who doesn’t want to follow the method we all are committed to are destined for green pools and unsanitary conditions.

I maintain my own pool and over time have become very thankful for all those on this site who share their knowledge, experiences, questions and work product (and most thankful for funny stories along the way). None of my neighbors maintain their own pools, not one. I’d say they are smart people, active, without question capable of learning to do and then do it.

The common denominator is putting in the time to learn how to do it from ground zero. Yes, TFP method works, makes sense, can be backed with it’s foundational science, and seems as easy as it can get. But the daunting step one for a brand new pool owner is sifting the wheat from the chaff to finally arrive here, and then the learning begins. It’s a tough one. How does the average busy person find the time to evaluate each voice among the chorus to pick the one that is actually good? Even a suggestion from me to check this site out, having crystal clear pool, minimal work, is just another voice among the chorus. Without a strong interest in it, I can see why a lot of folks can’t be bothered. Just too many voices out there all saying different things.

 

[Newdude]

(and most thankful for funny stories along the way)

One of our biggest strengths IMO.

Those funny stories almost always revolve around screw ups, and are a great teacher.

Avoid my screw ups
Avoid Bperry's screw ups
Avoid PoolStored's screw ups
(Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc)

And if you avoid enough of our collective screw ups, your pool is perfect.

 

[Dirk]

I maintain my own pool and over time have become very thankful for all those on this site who share their knowledge, experiences, questions and work product (and most thankful for funny stories along the way). None of my neighbors maintain their own pools, not one. I’d say they are smart people, active, without question capable of learning to do and then do it.

The common denominator is putting in the time to learn how to do it from ground zero. Yes, TFP method works, makes sense, can be backed with it’s foundational science, and seems as easy as it can get. But the daunting step one for a brand new pool owner is sifting the wheat from the chaff to finally arrive here, and then the learning begins. It’s a tough one. How does the average busy person find the time to evaluate each voice among the chorus to pick the one that is actually good? Even a suggestion from me to check this site out, having crystal clear pool, minimal work, is just another voice among the chorus. Without a strong interest in it, I can see why a lot of folks can’t be bothered. Just too many voices out there all saying different things.

I learned how to take care of my pool from TFP some 76 years ago (well, it seems that long ago, sometimes). I have exactly ONE notch in the ol' "converted" column, and dozens in the "tried" column. I'm surrounded by pool owners, and even have a few in the extended family, and the resistance to learning TFP (or rather anything but what they already do) is very strong with all of them. I think it's safe to say all of us here have experienced the same phenomenon.

You can lead a horse to clear, clean, safe, cheap water, but you can't make him drink the TFP cool-aid.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

One of our biggest strengths IMO.

Those funny stories almost always revolve around screw ups, and are a great teacher.

Avoid my screw ups
Avoid Bperry's screw ups
Avoid PoolStored's screw ups
(Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc)

And if you avoid enough of our collective screw ups, your pool is perfect.

I was fortunate enough to find and read about all of everyone else's screw ups prior to beginning my pool journey.

My wife's colleague just fired their pool guy. They paid almost $500 on the last bill and they have a green pool. Her husband is furious.

My wife has nudged her towards TFP before that, but with the recent bill I think they are closer to converting. They are supposed to come over soon so that I can show them the way.

Her husband is all "I don't have time to mess with the pool". That's likely because he is thinking it will be 30 minutes a day or more. I have spent almost 30 minutes collectively today, and so far I've tossed in and removed the robot, cleaned the filters in the robot, changed skimmer hair nets, added 10ppm of CYA. And next to the 15 minutes of testing I will do over the course of the rest of the week, and changing skimmer hairnets 1-2 more times, that is it for the week.

I may have to convince them to switch to a SWCG, not sure how they chlorinate. And I may have to assist with installing, which I am happy to do. I just want everyone to know how enjoyable having a pool can actually be.

I just wish people would listen when I tell them how easy it is. They don't follow the $$$$ and they figure that the pool care professionals, i.e. pool stores and pool care services, have to know more.

--Jeff

 

[midlifecrisis]

@SJPoe
When I wanted more than what Pentair automation could offer, I played around a little bit with Node-Red right at first (with lots of help from a couple of our members here)
I found it to be like a building block concept which was pretty cool. But right around that same time, I got pointed in the direction of GitHub, Raspberry Pi's and the like. I ended up hooking up with the developers of njspC, dashPanel and eventually REM. They were starting to get super-serious with developing those controller platforms and which now I can't say enough good things about.

Maybe cruise on over there and have a look around. It just might pique your curiosity.
GitHub - tagyoureit/nodejs-poolController: An application to control pool equipment from various manufacturers.

GitHub - rstrouse/nodejs-poolController-dashPanel: A dashboard panel for tagyoureit/nodejs-poolController

GitHub - rstrouse/relayEquipmentManager: A hardware controller for GPIO, I2c, SPI, and generic devices.

Thanks!
r.

I'm getting here. Not because I need too, but because it's fun.

 

[cwspool]

There are absolutely more ways to sanitize water than using chlorine, but none that I've heard make enough sense to use on the scale of a pool... and even if money were no object preventing person to person contamination would be challenging.

So if you're interpreting the tfp method by using chlorine efficiently, I'd say you can't really get around it. I've done what the pool store says and it's mostly worked, but I'd never go back to that, but it's an option for a lot of people, as is an expensive service.

If you mean to be using the information here but want to get out of daily testing, I'm planning on getting two peristaltic (stenner) pumps, one for MA and one for LC and shooting for enough stability to get to weekly testing, having an automated cover should help dramatically.

Infact, I'd imagine you open yourself up to a lot of wacky strategies if you could commit to only having your pool exposed and uncovered when in use. None of those would be popular on these forums and I doubt they would be very practical, but if you want different, aggressively using a pool cover might be a key ingredient.

 

[ringi]

I feel that with a fixed rate liquid chlorine feeder (bleach), with UV and/or Ozone system and variable speed pump running slowly 24/7, a indoor or fully covered pool should be able to be left for a week or two. Test water, correct FC by hand and adjust chlorine pump feed rate every few weeks, along with all the other TFP tests/adjustments (eg ph), keep a high level of ph buffering. Clean out skimmers etc each time the pool is used/uncovered along with addational FC test/adjustment after heavy uage.

I fail to see how a salt water chlorine generators creates less work then an injector pump as the increased rust/damage etc due to the salt will be as much work as topping up the liquid chlorine tank. (But I expect a salt water chlorine generators does directly reduce combined chlorides due to the electric arc by enough so as to make a meaningful difference to a domestic pool.)

With UV and/or Ozone system an oxygen reduction capacity sensor should be able to nearly fully regulate the rate of liquid chlorine addation other then at times of much higher usage then is normal for the pool.

 

[Newdude]

I fail to see how a salt water chlorine generators creates less work then an injector pump as the increased rust/damage etc due to the salt will be as much work as topping up the liquid chlorine tank

There is no increased rust. Everything you add is either a salt, or breaks down to salt. With an indoor pool free from rain overflow/ refill dilution, the salinity increases quickly and will likely surpass that of a 'salt pool'.

Nobody on liquid chlorine or pucks ever checks their salinity because it's harmless at pool levels, but call it a salt pool and everyone loses their minds.

LC injection systems handle the daily dosing for you, but you still need to buy, lug and load the jugs. The convenience of on-site production simply cannot be overstated.

 

[Dirk]

There is no increased rust. Everything you add is either a salt, or breaks down to salt. With an indoor pool free from rain overflow/ refill dilution, the salinity increases quickly and will likely surpass that of a 'salt pool'.

Nobody on liquid chlorine or pucks ever checks their salinity because it's harmless at pool levels, but call it a salt pool and everyone loses their minds.

LC injection systems handle the daily dosing for you, but you still need to buy, lug and load the jugs. The convenience of on-site production simply cannot be overstated.

As 'dude points out, every pool is a saltwater pool. Chlorine, muriatic acid and humans all leave salt behind as a byproduct. Whether you use liquid chlorine or a SWG, you will be regularly exchanging water to maintain the desired salinity.

Most damage that occurs around a pool is caused by the water, not the amount of salt in it.

In addition to "buy, lug and load," there is the storage. That means either crates of gallons of liquid chlorine (that cannot be stored outdoors in the heat) stacked up somewhere indoors, or a giant container (15 gallons? 30 gallons? 50?) of chlorine installed somewhere. That container is a hazard. And if it's outside, it's a chlorine potency-reduction machine.

There is a news story on the 'net about a commercial pool with a liquid chlorine injection system that went haywire and dumped its entire contents into the pool. A set of rambunctious youngsters jumped right in, as kids will do, and were seriously injured. The only way to make a system like that safe is to use a very small tank, which would limit such an accident to just a few gallons of chlorine inadvertently added. But then you'd have to refill that tank almost every day.

I fail to see how a salt water chlorine generators creates less work

Only a person that has never owned a pool with an SWG would make such a claim. Most of the people here telling you otherwise have owned and used both systems. I doubt you'd be able to find one person that would switch back to liquid chlorine or pucks.

With UV and/or Ozone system an oxygen reduction capacity sensor should be able to nearly fully regulate the rate of liquid chlorine addation other then at times of much higher usage then is normal for the pool.

@JoyfulNoise might be able to confirm or counter that.

 

[needsajet]

With UV and/or Ozone system an oxygen reduction capacity sensor should be able to nearly fully regulate the rate of liquid chlorine addation other then at times of much higher usage then is normal for the pool.

Perhaps you're referring to ORP (Oxidation Reduction Potential)?

A couple of caveats on that, but especially fouling of ORP sensors caused by cyanuric acid, an essential ingredient for pool water sanitation management that makes sense (per the thread topic). There's also calibration and recalibration required.

Is there a reason why you included UV and ozone in that sentence?

 

[SJPoe]

Is there

So it begs the question, is there a non-TFP method that makes sense? How can you own a pool if you aren’t willing to dedicate the effort (as minimal as it is) to its care?

Depends really on what you mean by 'makes sense'. It implies that it meets the users requirements, be it time, cost, whatever. Lots of methods meet those requirements, however, they may not meet mine. The traditional Puck+Shock+Water Exchange method has 'made sense' to the pool industry for decades...and for people that have more money than time, it works pretty well - algae just happens and thats the pool guys problem.

So is there a way the TFP method scales to those who don’t want to commit the time/effort?

Essentially, can you do the TFP method, but skip all the fiddly stuff that makes it work ? No, not really. The TFP method relies on proper testing to determine what to add and when. The less you test, the more inaccurate your testing, the further behind the curve you get. Sure, you can get to the stage where you kinda know where your pool is going to be...and you can use things like SWGs and so on to take some of the manual labor out of the equation, but daily or every-other-day testing is essential until you at least get things 'dialed in'. You can automate a lot of that testing...but then you need to monitor the automation...and I'd rather try to teach people pool chemistry, than Linux and Node-JS.

Everybody else I know does exactly what the pool store tells them to. Toss a couple of tabs in a floater and over correct it once a week with shock. Unbeknownst to everyone else I know, this method makes them a slave to the pool store. Some have wised up and instead buy the exact same overpriced and/or magic potions from WalMart/Costco, based upon their own test strips.

I call this 'Expert Syndrome' - doesn't just apply to the pool store. There are a thousand things the average person can happily do themselves, but have been convinced it's too hard, or needs an expert, or will burn your house down, void your warranty, make your cat pregnant. I have a friend that was paying a plumber $150 every 3 months to come change the whole home water filter cartridge...which cost $17. Blew her mind when I showed up with the cartridge and made her change it herself....took her 15 minutes, and she's never had the plumber back. Sometimes people just need to be shown the first time. Of course, you can't fix everything for everyone, and sometimes a professional is required - but frankly, having spent the last 2.5 years 'fixing' a lot of the work the 'professionals' have done to this house...I'm not sure I could do it much worse.

 

[Dirk]

There are a thousand things the average person can happily do themselves

This has never been truer than today. I never changed the fuser on a laser printer before, but there was a YouTube video that showed me how. For the exact 10-year-old printer I have! It was a $1000 printer, and the fix was $150. That's $850 in my pocket! Same for my dryer. YouTubed the exact model I had and it showed me where to put a drop of solder on a tiny circuit board. That would have been a $300 service call and probably a similar charge for a new circuit board!

If you can google, you can fix almost anything yourself.

And even if you can't pull it off on your own, you can learn how to watch a pro do his thing to make sure he's not ripping you off:
"Oh, so sorry Dirk, you're going to need a new frazzlehopher valve. 'fraid that's going to be $1500 for parts and labor. I'll have to order the part. I'll be back in two weeks."
"Huh, can't you just tighten the valve stem packing nut? I watched a YouTube video about it, I just couldn't reach it myself."
"Oh, well, yah, I suppose so. If that's the way you wanna go. I still gotta charge you for the fifteen minutes today, that'll be $300!"
"OK, well that's better than $1500."

 

[Newdude]

+1. I'm my own appliance repairman now. I just changed the shocks on my fancy top load washer that was out of balance ($74 DIY) and I'm about to replace the squeaky rollers on my dryer for the 2nd time. ($40)

 

[Mdragger88]

+1. I'm my own appliance repairman now. I just changed the shocks on my fancy top load washer that was out of balance ($74 DIY) and I'm about to replace the squeaky rollers on my dryer for the 2nd time. ($40)

I’m currently in the squeaky dryer club & I will be doing the same soon (can’t really complain since the whole thing cost me $60).
& Just today I finagled my washer lid switch again with a new clothes pin. - Speed queen hack, thanks YouTube
What a time we’re living in!

 

[Newdude]

I’m currently in the squeaky dryer club & I will be doing the same soon (can’t really complain since the whole thing cost me $60)

I will be buying the OEM rollers this time. I bought the generic ones last time which had upgraded bearings (seemed smart when the OEM failed in 1 year) but many complaints that they smelled like weed when in use. Mine do too and its obnoxious even 2 years later. So they lasted longer but I've wanted them to fail since I installed them.

 

[Mdragger88]

I will be buying the OEM rollers this time. I bought the generic ones last time which had upgraded bearings (seemed smart when the OEM failed in 1 year) but many complaints that they smelled like weed when in use. Mine do too and its obnoxious even 2 years later. So they lasted longer but I've wanted them to fail since I installed them.

Maybe that’s the “upgraded” feature?
Some like that sort of thing

 

[xDom]

I’ve got a TFP pool and truly enjoy the few minutes I spend daily on it

The other day my daughter said to me….
“ you’re a bit grumpy Dad, why don’t you go and test the pool, you like doing that”.