Hydraulic Configuration for 2 Pool plus Spa Setup

[Kennerb4]

If the hot tub comes as it's own system,vyou just leave it alone.

Then you have one skimmer and return for each pool, two pumps and one filter and around 20' of pipe to hook everything up, and maybe a line to tie in the tub.

I'm thinking of a bottle Rocket compared to your falcon heavy multi purpose heavy lift to Mars rocket. They both work.

Hi CF. No, this is a spa/hot tub with all separate components. It's the type that gets sunk into the ground or into decking. It was made by a company called Polynesian Spa's but used all Jacuzzi plumbing. It had a Jacuzzi pump with 230volt 2.25hp GE motor, a Jacuzzi cartridge filter, and a 2.0HP Anzen Products blower, along with a big propane pool heater (the name escapes me). I'm installing all new and up to date equipment. Here's a picture of what it looks like. My brother and I were just getting some measurements to set the concrete piers for the spa. I told the decking contractor that I would have the spa set in place so he could build around it. All of the existing composite boards and decking will be replaced to color match the new decks going in. Thanks. Ken

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Kenner-

Post what is on sight assembled/built , photo etc
& more importantly what & why are your operational goals?

I’ll help you out. I am extremely busy these days, so just keep that in mind when I’m slow to reply or contribute .

Ray

 

[PoolguyinCT]

In a Rube Goldberg fashion.. [emoji41][emoji2]

Upon closer examination, a number of safety flaws..

 

[Dirk]

Upon closer examination, a number of safety flaws..

The deadheading? Wasn't sure how that's done, balancing returns and adjusting spa jets. Is it three-ways exclusively for that? Looking forward to seeing the better way...

 

[Kennerb4]

Just to be clear, I've never designed or built even the simplest pool plumbing system, so I'm just spit-ballin' with ya. You'd need to get another set, or ten, of eyes on this, for sure. And while you're checkin' on this idea:

I didn't realize being able to heat one pool at a time was a goal. With my schematic, it is possible to do that, manually for sure, with just the turn of two three-ways. But that would in essence isolate the other pool from filtering and circulation, too, not just heat. Theoretically you could filter and heat one pool during some number of hours of the day, and then filter the other pool during some other set of hours, with no heat. But you'd have to manage the valves, and you'd have to test and dose the two pools as two pools, if you were running them that way for any extended period. Whether that would be worth the trouble or not is up to you. And it's conceivable you could automate that, by adding two more actuators, but how exactly you'd orchestrate that with one controller is beyond my experience.

The other wild card is the winterizing. I don't winterize my pool, so I can't speak to that either. Someone who does would have to look at the drawing and tell you if you can winterize one or both pools, just by closing valves, and still be able to leave the pump and heater online to run just the spa. Or the spa and one pool. The valves are there to do it, I just don't know if you can drop the pool levels and blowout the pipes, etc (whatever one does to winterize), and leave water in some other part of the system.

--- Updated ---

I was advised to delete the following post. And I decided to take half of this one down, too. Too much "hypothetical" and not enough facts. I hope I was clear enough that I was just brain-stroming with the OP, and any idea I might offer was just based on my imagination and not on any real-world experience plumbing even one body of water, let alone three.

One of the things I most appreciate about this site is that it is curated, and most every post is reviewed by experts, and posts that contain information that doesn't support TFPC, or are otherwise inaccurate, are either corrected or taken down. I'm happy to contribute here, and equally happy to be corrected!

I completely understand that this sketch-up is “conceptual” in design without any real way of knowing if it would work for sure. I’m the first to admit that my experience on this subject is limited but the design seems to make sense from a water flow standpoint. You sketched a simple, straight forward design that could conceivably use one pump, filter, and chlorinator to then switch between three different “pools” with the help of automation. Could there be a better, simpler, or even a more cost effective, way to get the job done? I don’t know, but with that said, I hope others will give their take on it.


I also just saw your ***Update***. Yeah, I guess that’s just the job of a curator. Even though it’s just a few of us guys on here, talking, bs-ing, and throwing out ideas, they rightfully try to watch out for everyone’s best interests. You’re a good guy! Thanks for continuing to share your thoughts and otherwise, opinions, about this stuff. This is a very cool website and forum. Having people on here who are willing to just listen and talk about this stuff is invaluable and has exceeded my expectations. Ken

 

[Dirk]

Ken, thanks for being clear on the parameters of our discussion. The problem is (was) that google is indiscriminate about what it pulls off the internet, and who it points where, such that a sentence or two could get read out of context, leading to a potential problem for someone not even part of our chat. So TFP's curating extends not only to the posters here, but to all the others, members or not, that might happen upon their site or any of its info. Which is pretty darn cool.

Just by us posting we're keeping this thread alive, but you've got quite a non-standard conundrum so there probably isn't a lot of info available, or experts with direct experience, for this particular issue. I like problem solving, and its challenge, but I do tend to stray into areas in which I have little or no experience when doing so. PoolguyinCT is a very experienced builder, and when he can put some thought to this thing, he'll probably have an answer, if no one else beats him to it.

How's the spa installation going? Do you have the one pool up and running, so you and yours at least have something to jump into while you sort this out?

 

[Kennerb4]

Kenner-

Post what is on sight assembled/built , photo etc
& more importantly what & why are your operational goals?

I’ll help you out. I am extremely busy these days, so just keep that in mind when I’m slow to reply or contribute .

Ray

Hello Ray. Thanks for your reply. I completely understand this is your peak time of year and your time is extremely limited. Here is some basic information on my setup.
Best Option) Ideally, I would love to have the two pools and spa connected on one pump, filter, and heater. I would only need to take the chill off of one or both pools on occasion. I will not be keeping them heated. It would be nice to balance the water chemistry “as one pool” rather than two or three.

Option 2) Run the two pools as one body of water and the spa on its own heater, pump, filter, and blower.
Least Best Option 3) Which I really don’t want to do. Run each pool and the spa separately with three pumps and filters. Not to mention working the water chemistry on all three.

The 12 x 24 pool is plumbed and currently filled with water but not yet opened and cleaned for the season.
The 16 x 32 structure is built and in place. The liner, drains, and some plumbing parts are on site and ready to install.

The spa/hot tub is currently sitting on the ground next to where it will be placed into the deck. The piers are poured for the under structure but I do not yet have the spa set to elevation. The deck contractor will build decking around it.
I would like for at least the spa to be set up with the option of automation. I don’t necessarily need automation but it would be nice to be able turn on the heater from my phone when we head to this property on the weekends. Well heck, it would be nice having that availability from anywhere in the house too.
As you know, the only part of the plumbing, on this type of on-ground pool, are the drains. The skimmer and the return plumbing just run under the decking. So the existing plumbing on the 12 x 24 pool will not be hard to change over to a new pad.

I’ll snap some pictures as soon as I can get down there.
Thanks for taking a look.
Ken

 

[Dirk]

I was surprised to learn here that some pool heaters have a pretty high minimum temperature at which they can be used. Some come with warnings not to fire them up if the water is below a certain temp. "Take the chill off" can mean a lot of things. Be sure your heating equipment fits into your grand plan before you do your buying/plumbing...

 

[PoolguyinCT]

This is going to be a quickie, and I’m sure I’ll find faults or improvements in my own logic.

If this were my house.

Here’s a compromise of your

Pools - together
- tie the Drains together strictly to equalize the vessels while running, not to suck water through, entrapment risk removed. Based on the previous posts they will be equalized at rest, depending on system placement.

A proficient tech can prepare them for winter, which we will make you.

Spa-
I’d put the spa on its own pump & filter. - and cut a cheater bypass into the heater to heat spa or switch back to pool heating. This lets you heat when you come to the playhouse, and keep it sanitary when you are at your main residence.

id skip the automation, that little tub will get hot very quickly, like 3 beers fast.
I believe I read you have 200k or bigger gas burner.

Mechanical timers on both systems.

 

[Kennerb4]

This is going to be a quickie, and I’m sure I’ll find faults or improvements in my own logic.

If this were my house.

Here’s a compromise of your

Pools - together
- tie the Drains together strictly to equalize the vessels while running, not to suck water through, entrapment risk removed. Based on the previous posts they will be equalized at rest, depending on system placement.

A proficient tech can prepare them for winter, which we will make you.

Spa-
I’d put the spa on its own pump & filter. - and cut a cheater bypass into the heater to heat spa or switch back to pool heating. This lets you heat when you come to the playhouse, and keep it sanitary when you are at your main residence.

id skip the automation, that little tub will get hot very quickly, like 3 beers fast.
I believe I read you have 200k or bigger gas burner.

Mechanical timers on both systems.

Hello Ray. Sorry, I've had something keeping me away from this project over the weekend. “Back into pool mode, ha.” First, thanks for taking time to put some thoughts into my setup. The two pump setup does sound like a simpler way to plumb everything. Although I’m back to running two hydraulic systems and taking care of water chemistry on two bodies of water. And I’m certainly okay with that setup if that’s what is going to work best in this situation. I'm just looking for different ways I could do this project, and then go with the most feasible. “Then I would like to get this thing done so we could enjoy it, and move on to other projects” That's the greatest thing about this forum, the different ideas and the suggestions for better ways of doing it.

I'm a little confused when you said “tie the Drains together strictly to equalize the vessels while running, not to suck water through, entrapment risk removed” Looking at the previous sketch up, I think you are saying, “not to use the three ways on the drains” and just hard plumb them so that they always pull from both pools. {Or were you saying} “Don’t suck water through them” as to disconnect them from the pump and to use them in place of a equalizing tube, and draw water only from the skimmer? Also, when you mentioned “entrapment risk removed”, were you referring to the other sketch-up with a 2 inch equalizing pipe, near the surface of the water, as a entrapment risk? Sorry, I know you said that you didn’t have time to explain but I’m not real clear of what you meant. If you get a minute, could you expound upon that setup?

I like how you said “id skip the automation, that little tub will get hot very quickly, like 3 beers fast.” Ha… “now you’re talking my language”. Lol… I get that. Now if I put that into technical terms, I could have that one thousand gallon spa up to operating temperature in about 15 minutes. Just kidding. Yeah, even if we could get it to temperature within an hour, would be great. I have not purchased a heater yet but yes, I was considering a 200k or 250k btu propane heater to heat the spa quickly and adequate “butt” to possibly make the pools a little warmer if necessary. Like from 80 to 84.

Thanks again for responding and I look forward to hearing back from you with all due respect to your time constraints during your peak season.

 

[Kennerb4]

I was surprised to learn here that some pool heaters have a pretty high minimum temperature at which they can be used. Some come with warnings not to fire them up if the water is below a certain temp. "Take the chill off" can mean a lot of things. Be sure your heating equipment fits into your grand plan before you do your buying/plumbing...

Hi Dirk. Thanks for the thought. I never heard about the problems under those conditions but perhaps it has something to do with condensation issues when trying to heat very cold water. Who knows but something to keep in mind. Using solar blankets, my water would usually never be colder than 78 degrees and normally around 80 or 81 degrees during the spring. When I say, "knock the chill off" it would normally mean for my water anyway, to bring the temp from around 81 degrees to around 84 or 85 degrees.

I haven't done too much research on heater sizing yet. Only on the different types, like gas, electric and heat pump. For my particular needs, it appears that a gas fired heater will probably work best. Unfortunately, my only gas option is propane.

 

[Dirk]

Hi Dirk. Thanks for the thought. I never heard about the problems under those conditions but perhaps it has something to do with condensation issues when trying to heat very cold water. Who knows but something to keep in mind. Using solar blankets, my water would usually never be colder than 78 degrees and normally around 80 or 81 degrees during the spring. When I say, "knock the chill off" it would normally mean for my water anyway, to bring the temp from around 81 degrees to around 84 or 85 degrees.

I haven't done too much research on heater sizing yet. Only on the different types, like gas, electric and heat pump. For my particular needs, it appears that a gas fired heater will probably work best. Unfortunately, my only gas option is propane.

Yes, I believe condensation was the issue. Forming somewhere inside the heater and causing problems. Sorry I can't remember it better. It wasn't for the 81-85 scenario, if I recall, so I think you're good there. But what was surprising was that it wasn't just about starting from 40s or 50s. More like 70s, which is what stuck in my head, whatever the number, because that meant my heater can't do whatever I might need it to do (like heat up my pool for a New Year's Eve party in the middle of winter, or something like that). Point was: check the owner manual for the warning before you buy.