Health Department Standards: FC:CYA

[gregsfc]

I've not been actively reading the forum for a while. I've gotten behind on changes in the industry, if any, which I keep hoping for but can't figure out whether it's happening or not. Specifically, I'm trying to gauge whether or not one of the main TFP tenants that differs from the "traditional" method of pool care historically, the concept that FC should be maintained at minimum 7.5% of CYA for outdoor, non saltwater pools; if that mandate is being adopted by the industry or not? When I do a Google search, I find some pool stores and pool care professionals, online companies, specifically in Florida that are now talking about the need for maintaining this ratio and they cite the exact FC/CYA chart that originated with Ben Powell and perfected and published on this site. I also found and read a few state health department guidelines that also seem to indicate higher FC levels than what used to be the standard for a separate category called "stabilized" pools (the state of GA is the one I looked at most closely); even though they did not require a ratio or a percentage. They simply require a higher FC minimum and allow a higher maximum for what is labeled "stabilized" pools. I think the chart I saw first had a box that showed no higher than 5, but then stated, except for the case below; that case being the category called "stabilized" pools.

So on the one hand, it looks like the official regulators in the industry...state and local health departments, are starting to adopt this requirement, at least in part, to maintain healthful and safe pools; but on the other hand, I still read chemical company labels that give out all kinds of misleading and just plain wrong information like we're used to seeing. I just bought a few jugs of Kik brand liquid chlorine at 10%; manufactured June 2017. It seems to be a very good product, as it is raising my FC slightly above what I expect for the ounces added; however, it gives that old recommendation of a crazy-low FC level and does not allow for higher levels at higher levels of CYA. In fact, it's just the opposite, stating that FC should never be above 3, and that one should not go in a pool that has FC over 3.

So what gives? Those of you who keep up with the industry and whether or not BBB/TFPs efforts are getting in to the mainstream. Is it happening? Is the industry ever going to try and publish the truth about proper sanitation of outdoor pools? If someone has access to some recent articles or other information, please leave a link. This is something that has fascinated me ever since a pool store associate told me that I should no longer add stabilized chlorine to my pool because my CYA was 68; and I went home and found TFP, because I didn't understand how my CYA got to be 68 when I had not added CYA (or at least I didn't know I had added it). I started reading TFP pool school and couldn't believe that an industry had served us so poorly for so long and had not been forced to straighten up its act.

 

[needsajet]

Here's an article from an industry publication which includes a link to the source article.
New Thinking: Chlorine/Cyanuric Acid In Balance - AQUA Magazine

Also industry, although not US, are the pool chlorine labels here is Aus which recommend higher FC rates for stabilized (up to 50 ppm CYA) vs. non-stabilized pools. I can only vouch for the last three years, but I'm told it's been this way for a long time.

The other side of the coin is States that don't allow CYA in public pools because of past bad practice, and consequently lose the bather comfort benefits of CYA.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

It's a complicated problem that involves lots of moving part - equipment manufacturers, chemical manufacturers, industry trade groups, business trade groups, state regulatory authorities, public/commercial versus private interests, consumer product safety laws, consumer protection laws, etc, etc. There is no simple answer here.

But one thing to keep in mind is that residential pools are NOT regulated under any state or federal law except for their construction. Once approved and built, a residential pool owner can do just about anything they like, both foolish and wise, to their pools. But, that being the case, it is probably all for the best as regulatory creep is inevitable and any regulation imposed on residential pool owners by the state would eventually corrode the free market of ideas and products that are made available to those pool owners.

Are there shady products out there that make both dubious and grandiose claims? Sure.

Do you want the state telling you what you can and cannot add to your pool and then force you to pay for a product you might not want to use? Nope, no thanks.

The answer to all of this is .... education! This is what TFP is here for - to shed light on the darkness of pool care and help people to understand and take control of their pools.

 

[BasicTek]

I see this debate all over the forum, why does the pool store seemingly ignore the FC/CYA relationship.

From my pool test they recommend FC of 1-4 yet the CYA of 30 -100, that leaves plenty of room for algae. Do they want to have their customers come in with algae? So they can sell them chemicals? It doesn't seem a sound business principal because eventually all their customers would abandon them.

Then My brand new Hayward Swimpure Plus recommends an FC of 1-3 and CYA of 60 - 80 preferably 80. From the wording on manual it's possible they could deny a claim since I keep my CYA 80 and FC at 6 as the 6 is well outside their recommended range. So what's in it for Hayward to recommend ranges that are asking for algae??? If people buy their equipment, maintain that range, and get nonstop algae outbreaks, wouldn't they will surely blame and hate that equipment??? How does this do anything to help Hayward??? And shouldn't a leading vendor in pool equipment have better scientific data so they could recommend proper CYA/FC levels? This really puzzles me.
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[JoyfulNoise]

Equipment manufacturers simply parrot industry guidelines. This provides protection against legal liability - as long as their guidelines are the same as everyone else's then any problems a pool owner experiences must be their own fault. Algae and green pools are not a problem to them, they are simply "part of pool ownership" and so, if you get a green pool, oh well that's just your fault, or bad luck, or too much rain, or (insert any hair-brained excuse here).

 

[needsajet]

For a warranty claim, you can change your water before filing your claim, go get a pool store test, and if need be, keep going until they get the test right. For most TFPC pools, I think all that would be needed is to increase the TA with baking soda and reduce the FC with sodium thiosulphate, carefully, and if need be, adjust FC back to 2 ppm for the test. If a pool tech is coming to do the repair or assess for the claim, you'd have to be sure your water was within limits for the visit, cause they might take a sample for testing.

 

[BasicTek]

So a company that sells as much pool equipment as Hayward would rather see all their customers pools turn green rather than point them in the right direction chemical wise? Then to push things further they would risk court involvement in denying warranty claims rather than just allowing customers to maintain proper pool chemistry? Doesn't that seem insane? If that is the case then any company could easily upend the top pool equipment manufactures buy selling virtually any knock off product and having customers practice proper pool chemistry.... As customers got wind that with pool company B's product, I didn't run into any issues, my water was always clear, and sparkling, while customers of Hayward and Pentair had to live with swamps.... There must be some other variables at play here.....

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So a company that sells as much pool equipment as Hayward would rather see all their customers pools turn green rather than point them in the right direction chemical wise? Then to push things further they would risk court involvement in denying warranty claims rather than just allowing customers to maintain proper pool chemistry? Doesn't that seem insane? If that is the case then any company could easily upend the top pool equipment manufactures buy selling virtually any knock off product and having customers practice proper pool chemistry.... As customers got wind that with pool company B's product, I didn't run into any issues, my water was always clear, and sparkling, while customers of Hayward and Pentair had to live with swamps.... There must be some other variables at play here.....

And it all takes in one pool owner to claim that they were physically harmed by 6ppm FC and, because Company B's water quality guidelines are not in keeping with industry standards, their negligence in telling people to raise their FC 2X higher than any other product on the market makes them liable for the injury suffered.

Ingredients for Handsome Lawsuit Payout -

1. Bogus claim of injury
2. Medical "professional" willing to document said bogus injury
3. Ethically-challenged ambulance chaser (aka, "lawyer") looking to be part of big settlement, maybe even a nice class-action lawsuit

In the world of retail business, there is an endless supply of people to be duped and a majority of them prefer to believe that magical potions and products will cure all of their pool problems. As was said of PT Barnum's hoaxes, "There's a sucker born every minute..."

 

[needsajet]

Well, probably not insane, but certainly part of why TFP has 140,000 members

As they say... follow the money. No one is going to court over a thousand dollar chlorinator or pump. But if someone can make a case that they got sick from a pool that was chlorinated on EquipmentManufacturer's unique advice (that is outside an industry norm), then they could be at risk for noticeable dollars. Plus, if you run sub-optimal chemistry, you will wear out your SWG and pump faster, and that means more sales. Any corporate executive who popped his head up and said, "hey let's do the right thing and fix this"... would get the whack-a-mole treatment from legal and marketing. Then they might go for a beer, make up, and talk about how they run their own pools!

 

[BasicTek]

I would still think the science would be more important than ridiculous articles like this one stating things like avoiding chlorinated pools below

"[FONT=&quot]1. Swim in an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]outdoor[/FONT][FONT=&quot] chlorinated pool. It is much safer due to the fact that the majority of the toxic gases are eliminated in the air.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. Swim in chlorinated pools occasionally. It is the regular exposure to chlorinated pools that presents the greatest risk to health.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. Shower immediately before and after with a natural soap like [/FONT]Castile soap[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. Drink plenty of non-chlorinated, filtered water beforehand so that you are well hydrated.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. Consider wearing a mask and snorkel to shield your eyes – and even a wetsuit, if you are willing to go that far![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. Get fresh air afterward so you don’t continue to inhale the fumes, and can clear your lungs.[/FONT]"