Having trouble deciding on equipment upgrades

[rinaldok]

Hey folks, this is a long post with lots of questions. Bear with me.

I'm a little overwhelmed with choices at the moment.

I've been going round and round on options for changing/upgrading my equipment pad. Currently it's ye-olde single speed pump and sand filter. I have been looking at various options to a) add a SWCG, a-1) maybe add acid injection b) replace the filter with a cartridge filter, c) replace the pump with a VSP, and maybe d) replace the halogen light.

Topic 1: Automation or not?

What's the current state of automation? Pool automation still seems like it's either clunky and antiquated, or astronomically expensive for anything resembling "high-tech". I do not have anything fancy... no water features, no spa, etc., and my budget is "I'd like to accomplish this for as little as possible" considering I'm embarking on a $10k pebble and deck resurfacing. My investigation into automation started because I was looking at replacing the old halogen light with a LED/color changing light. Most of them are controlled by flipping the switch, and I don't want to sit out there flipping the switch 20 or 300,000 times if I want to get a particular effect. I saw that there was a solution with Hayward lights that can be controlled with the Aqua Plus that would enable more color choices and dimmer/pattern control of the light that is not possible with just using switch-flipping.

I was pretty much settled on getting a simple Aqua Rite AQR15 for the SWCG, going rate is around $875 or so. However, I then fell onto the Aqua Plus / Pro Logic option which is around $1200 from INYO (Goldline Controls Pro Logic PLP4 Control, Chlorinator Pool or Spa Only - PLP4PACK - INYOPools.com). So, about a $325 upcharge from the basic SWCG to the one with automation. That seems reasonable. But, I know that now I have to start adding all kinds of gadgets and modules to make the automation useful. Is it worth the cost if my needs/wants are:

- SWCG
- VS pump
- LED light control
- Possible acid injection ?

Since I don't have any water features or a spa I don't need to worry about valves or anything, this would merely be for automating my chemistry if feasible and having better/more control of the lighting, from a remote (or a smart phone would be much nicer...) rather than switch-flipping in the pool panel box.

Subquestion -- what is the difference between the Aqua Plus and the Pro Logic?

Hayward Aqua Plus 40K Gallon Control and Chlorinator (PL-PLUS) - INYOPools.com

Goldline Controls Pro Logic PLP4 Control, Chlorinator Pool or Spa Only - PLP4PACK - INYOPools.com


Topic 2: Pump

Again, I was pretty much settled on the Pentair SuperFlo 342001 as my needs do not require a "big boy" VS pump. This pump can be had for the low to mid $600's.

I was tempted by the chinese pumps... Splash/Blue Torrent/whatever rebranding varies from 399 down to I think I saw 319 on ebay. I realize it's a gamble, but, hey, what isn't these days? However, if I am going to go with any kind of automation or integration, I don't think this would play well.

I wasn't considering any Hayward pumps until I started looking at the Hayward automation. Do I need a Hayward pump or will the Aqua Plus play nice with the Pentair pump?

To further complicate things, and circling back to automation, I just learned of the new Hayward Omni pumps that have what looks like much more up-to-date tech for automation built in. I think I would be looking at the MaxFlo 500 Omni, though it's really hard to distinguish an actual difference between the MaxFlo 500 Omni and the Super Pump 700 Omni. These are pro-only models, so I would be paying a fair bit more than if I sourced the parts online. Is this Omni automation sufficient, or does it lack in some appreciable way, like it doesn't do SWCG/Acid/etc. control?

Topic 3: Filter

This is an easy one... I was decided on the Pentair CCP420 cartridge, but one of the guys who gave me an estimate for my pebble/deck resurfacing "strongly" recommended the 520. I estimate I have around 15-18k gallons... so 420 or 520?


Topic 4: Acid or CO2?

I was interested in maybe adding acid injection... stenner pump or something that integrates with the Hayward Sense & Detect if I went that route. They also promote CO2 as an option, but it seems to me that sticking with acid would be best. I saw a few posts where this was discussed but I couldn't really glean a why I would / why I wouldn't bottom line from it. Thoughts?



Forgive the pun, but my head is swimming in options.

With all this laid out... am I on the right track? Am I so far down the rabbit hole that it's hopeless? Do you have a better suggestion or direction that I could take to accomplish what I'm looking to do? I'm not married to the Hayward idea, it's just what I found to be semi-approachable from my experience level.

This could be a "what would YOU do" question, or a "what do you suggest *I* do" question, or just can you help me narrow down my choices and come to a conclusion that strikes a balance between my wants and trying to minimize budget? I don't mind spending a little bit, if I'm getting the value for the money spent.

Thanks, and sorry for throwing 10,000 questions into a single post. I thought about breaking it up into multiple posts, but they all kind of come back to each other because my choices in one area affect my choices in another, so I thought it best to look at it holistically.

 

[chiefwej]

If you add automation, what ever brand you chose will limit your choice of pumps. By design, different brands do not work with others systems. I love my AquaRite SWG, but I wouldn’t have any VS pump other than the Pentair Intelliflo. I’m not about to buy an automation system so that I can turn a light bulb off and on. Prevailing opinion of acid injection system is not good. They tend to be troublesome and there are no dependable sensor systems to control them.

I have a pool with an in-floor cleaning system, an AquaRite T15, a solar heating system, a Pentair Intelliflo 11018 VS pump. I have no automation, other than a very simple ($200) Pentair SolarTouch panel for solar, and an old Intermatic mechanical timer. Yet, the pump comes on early each morning at an optimum speed for a good cleaning, then at a preselected time the SWG comes on and the pump shifts to a slower speed (that is still sufficient to operate it). If heat is called for and available at the solar panels, the solar valves are automatically opened and the pump ramps up to a higher speed to support the solar system. In late afternoon the pump drops to a very low speed, (which uses about as much power as a single light bulb) to provide extra filtration to really make the water sparkle. Late in the evening it shuts down, until repeating the program the next day. All this is done automatically with no intervention on my part, and without any automation system. It was just a matter of setting a timer for the SWG, and setting up the program on the pump. That’s just one of the advantages of the Intelliflo, flexibility in programming. It is far and away the most highly rated and recommend pump among the experts and members of the forum.

I’ve never wanted or felt I needed any automation. Other than turning on a light, I don’t see what I’m missing. Other people love them though.

 

[Dirk]

One thing that might help with the swimming head... Pick a brand. Whether you go full tilt now, or suspect you might eventually want to add some of these niceties, having everything the same brand will be desirable, if not imperative. I use Pentair. Many here like Pentair. (Filters and heaters don't really apply. But you want pump, automation, SWG the same.) So if you decide on a Hayward pump, you might want to stop looking at anything else that isn't Hayward (same principle for all the brands).

Check out my sig... all Pentair, all automated, all expensive! No compatibility issues. I get all I can get out of everything. And I don't regret the automation. I use it everyday, several times a day. Can you run a pool without it? Absolutely. Is it nicer with it? Absolutely. Does adding complicated, electronic gizmos open up the possibility (certainty?) of some additional replacement/repair tasks in the future? Absolutely. Just a matter of your need for techie goodness vs your tolerance for its complexities.

I have a very simple pool, like yours: no spa, no features. I do have solar and SWG, and a pool cleaner, and it is all controlled with automation, and I like that. A lot. I have a controller that is fine for my needs, but I do wish I had upgraded to a more capable model. The one I have is the "light" version and doesn't provide all the scheduling I'd like to do. So if you go with automation, you might consider the "next one up" to cover future needs. I purchased what I though at the time was a complete system, then later added several items that then taxed the controller (solar, cleaner automation, SWG).

I will warn you though, that IMHO, pool automation technology pales in comparison with what is going on in the world just now. Integration with home automation, wifi and bluetooth connectivity, user interface design (remember, I only have experience with Pentair), are all missing or wanting. Like 10-20 years behind in some cases. For example, I can only have 4 schedules total, for things that go on and off. Better models have more schedules, but like only a handful more. This stuff is crazy expensive (even the light model). I can't schedule 5 things?!? How about 100 things? Geez. I have a $15 light timer that has 16 schedules! I can program any number of alarms on my iPhone. Pentair, at least, is pretty stingy with the capabilities. It all works. And reliably for the most part. But it is all proprietary and their update cycles are painstakingly slow. Some of this stuff hasn't improved significantly in a decade. A decade ago there were no iPhones! Ten years is a loooooong time for tech. If you're used to the smart phone wars, where technology is falling over itself for bigger and better and faster and features, you're going to get a wake up call with pool technology... And because none of the big players are breaking away from the pack (like Apple did with the first iPhone), none of them seem to be very motivated to do much better.

Example: I have the Pentair LED, controlled by automation. But when I change the color, you can hear the relay clicking on and off a bunch of times! Crazy. What is this, the 50s!? The LED light has all three colors of the light spectrum. It has the hardware to produce any color, at any rate of change. It could be spectacular. Nope. Five colors. Five "light shows." That's it. Blue: Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. Nope, red? OK. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. Oh wait, I want a little romance mood... Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. Yah, romantic!

On the flip side: another real-world example of automation... I used to have two Intermatic mechanical timers. Turned the pump on and off. Turned the cleaner on and off. Very simple. But not reliable, at all. The little metal do-dads that set the on and off times would constantly fall off, or move around the dial, and had to be monitored and reset often, at the pad. My new automation has resolved all that. Not only is it way more reliable, but I can program things from by bed if I want to! (And I do want to!!)

So while automation is primarily about convenience, it's not just about convenience. There are things you can do with automation that just can't be done with simpler systems. But it'll cost ya!

Just my take...

 

[rinaldok]

Thanks for both of your replies. Dirk, you are echoing my sentiments. I started leaning to Hayward because it seemed like the lowest barrier to entry for what I was hoping to do.

I agree that the state of things is pretty bad when it comes to tech... I have all kinds of neat smart this and smart that throughout my house... and looking at pool automation it's like stepping in the wayback machine. Wired and/or RF remotes if we're lucky, otherwise spending many many thousands of dollars to get what would really cost maybe $100 elsewhere. It seems like a big market gap and an opportunity for the right clever and savvy mind to come along and make a product. With all the programmable controllers and maker kits and arduinos and such, it would seem like somebody who had the know-how could rig up something moderately "universal." *shrug*

Of course nobody NEEDS automation - nobody really NEEDS a pool, either. It's a luxury item, and a convenience item, but it shouldn't require a champagne budget just to get a few bells and whistles for fun.

I'm hoping someone can address some of my more specific questions also to help me narrow it down and figure out what direction to take.

 

[Uncle Salty]

Hey Rinaldok,

I’m all Hayward as you can see in my signature and couldn’t be happier except for getting the Sense & Dispense as it’s a great idea but doesn’t work(save your $). This is my first pool and I was worried it would be a lot of work but it’s been a total breeze and I would say it’s due to Automation & SWG and the TFP website. It’s very convenient to be able to control and monitor everything via my iPhone and couldn’t imagine not having it now that I do. Probably the best decision was to get a Robot, I don’t think you mentioned one but you should definitely budget for one as it also makes pool ownership a pleasure instead of a pain. I’m sure others will chime in with their experiences and offer you some more opinions.

Salty

 

[PoolGate]

Check utility rebates for pool pumps. With a good rebate like $400 it might make a "big boy" pump cheaper than the one you were looking at.

 

[rinaldok]

If you're seeing $400 rebates, please point me in that direction. The best I've seen is $50-$100, so nothing that's going to offset the price difference for a larger VS pump.

Any suggestions on maybe moving this post or breaking it up into different sections of the forum to get deeper into my more specific questions?

 

[PoolGate]

If you're seeing $400 rebates, please point me in that direction. The best I've seen is $50-$100, so nothing that's going to offset the price difference for a larger VS pump.

Any suggestions on maybe moving this post or breaking it up into different sections of the forum to get deeper into my more specific questions?

It is all location based. My electric company gave me $400. Most have something.

 

[PoolGate]

Hey folks, this is a long post with lots of questions. Bear with me.

I'm a little overwhelmed with choices at the moment.

I've been going round and round on options for changing/upgrading my equipment pad. Currently it's ye-olde single speed pump and sand filter. I have been looking at various options to a) add a SWCG, a-1) maybe add acid injection b) replace the filter with a cartridge filter, c) replace the pump with a VSP, and maybe d) replace the halogen light.

Topic 1: Automation or not?

What's the current state of automation? Pool automation still seems like it's either clunky and antiquated, or astronomically expensive for anything resembling "high-tech". I do not have anything fancy... no water features, no spa, etc., and my budget is "I'd like to accomplish this for as little as possible" considering I'm embarking on a $10k pebble and deck resurfacing. My investigation into automation started because I was looking at replacing the old halogen light with a LED/color changing light. Most of them are controlled by flipping the switch, and I don't want to sit out there flipping the switch 20 or 300,000 times if I want to get a particular effect. I saw that there was a solution with Hayward lights that can be controlled with the Aqua Plus that would enable more color choices and dimmer/pattern control of the light that is not possible with just using switch-flipping.

I was pretty much settled on getting a simple Aqua Rite AQR15 for the SWCG, going rate is around $875 or so. However, I then fell onto the Aqua Plus / Pro Logic option which is around $1200 from INYO (Goldline Controls Pro Logic PLP4 Control, Chlorinator Pool or Spa Only - PLP4PACK - INYOPools.com). So, about a $325 upcharge from the basic SWCG to the one with automation. That seems reasonable. But, I know that now I have to start adding all kinds of gadgets and modules to make the automation useful. Is it worth the cost if my needs/wants are:

- SWCG
- VS pump
- LED light control
- Possible acid injection ?

Since I don't have any water features or a spa I don't need to worry about valves or anything, this would merely be for automating my chemistry if feasible and having better/more control of the lighting, from a remote (or a smart phone would be much nicer...) rather than switch-flipping in the pool panel box.

Subquestion -- what is the difference between the Aqua Plus and the Pro Logic?

Hayward Aqua Plus 40K Gallon Control and Chlorinator (PL-PLUS) - INYOPools.com

Goldline Controls Pro Logic PLP4 Control, Chlorinator Pool or Spa Only - PLP4PACK - INYOPools.com


Topic 2: Pump

Again, I was pretty much settled on the Pentair SuperFlo 342001 as my needs do not require a "big boy" VS pump. This pump can be had for the low to mid $600's.

I was tempted by the chinese pumps... Splash/Blue Torrent/whatever rebranding varies from 399 down to I think I saw 319 on ebay. I realize it's a gamble, but, hey, what isn't these days? However, if I am going to go with any kind of automation or integration, I don't think this would play well.

I wasn't considering any Hayward pumps until I started looking at the Hayward automation. Do I need a Hayward pump or will the Aqua Plus play nice with the Pentair pump?

To further complicate things, and circling back to automation, I just learned of the new Hayward Omni pumps that have what looks like much more up-to-date tech for automation built in. I think I would be looking at the MaxFlo 500 Omni, though it's really hard to distinguish an actual difference between the MaxFlo 500 Omni and the Super Pump 700 Omni. These are pro-only models, so I would be paying a fair bit more than if I sourced the parts online. Is this Omni automation sufficient, or does it lack in some appreciable way, like it doesn't do SWCG/Acid/etc. control?

Topic 3: Filter

This is an easy one... I was decided on the Pentair CCP420 cartridge, but one of the guys who gave me an estimate for my pebble/deck resurfacing "strongly" recommended the 520. I estimate I have around 15-18k gallons... so 420 or 520?


Topic 4: Acid or CO2?

I was interested in maybe adding acid injection... stenner pump or something that integrates with the Hayward Sense & Detect if I went that route. They also promote CO2 as an option, but it seems to me that sticking with acid would be best. I saw a few posts where this was discussed but I couldn't really glean a why I would / why I wouldn't bottom line from it. Thoughts?



Forgive the pun, but my head is swimming in options.

With all this laid out... am I on the right track? Am I so far down the rabbit hole that it's hopeless? Do you have a better suggestion or direction that I could take to accomplish what I'm looking to do? I'm not married to the Hayward idea, it's just what I found to be semi-approachable from my experience level.

This could be a "what would YOU do" question, or a "what do you suggest *I* do" question, or just can you help me narrow down my choices and come to a conclusion that strikes a balance between my wants and trying to minimize budget? I don't mind spending a little bit, if I'm getting the value for the money spent.

Thanks, and sorry for throwing 10,000 questions into a single post. I thought about breaking it up into multiple posts, but they all kind of come back to each other because my choices in one area affect my choices in another, so I thought it best to look at it holistically.

OK here you go....

Topic 1: Automation - Yes, use it

Topic 2: Pump - Get a VSP. You'll save more in 1-2 years in electric than you will spend extra. Utility rebates are a bonus.

Topic 3: Filter - Bigger is better. Get teh 520.

Topic 4: Don't get an acid injection system. Don't use CO2. Add Muriatic when needed based on PROPER pH testing (TF-100 kit). Once your pool is balanced you will not need as much.

 

[Dirk]

I agree that the state of things is pretty bad when it comes to tech... I have all kinds of neat smart this and smart that throughout my house... and looking at pool automation it's like stepping in the wayback machine. Wired and/or RF remotes if we're lucky, otherwise spending many many thousands of dollars to get what would really cost maybe $100 elsewhere. It seems like a big market gap and an opportunity for the right clever and savvy mind to come along and make a product. With all the programmable controllers and maker kits and arduinos and such, it would seem like somebody who had the know-how could rig up something moderately "universal." *shrug*

Of course nobody NEEDS automation - nobody really NEEDS a pool, either. It's a luxury item, and a convenience item, but it shouldn't require a champagne budget just to get a few bells and whistles for fun.

I need automation! I also need constant supervision. So who am I to advise about anything!

Ha, we're each preachin' to the choir! The big players have managed to lock out any third-party opportunity to correct their tech deficiencies. It's all proprietary. Nobody's stuff talks to anybody else's. No wifi/bluetooth/etc. They don't release spec's or protocols. No such thing as "open source!" That's all by design, I suspect, all profit driven. Once they lock you into their brand, they can charge whatever they want. $600 for an LED light? Plus another 50% if you want a warranty (because you have to have a pro install them if you want a warranty, and a paltry warranty at that)?!? I'd be thrilled to pay $300 for an LED system that had access to a million colors, user-programable light shows, instant switching between modes, maybe even some music tracking. Just really basic stuff. Nope. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. And you know what? I bought the thing anyway, and paid full price, didn't I. So why would they do better?

Pentair offers some sort of interface for communication to home automation, but it is way off the chart expensive for what it does. There's no where else to go, so ya gotta pay. That's where I've drawn the line. So my pool automation is run separately from my home automation. Bummer.

Now all that griping aside, I do have to give at least a little flip side, as I have before when I've embarked on this particular rant. The R&D numbers are just not there for Pentair or the others. How many people would actually buy anything, at any price, to integrate home automation (on a Macintosh, no less) with Pentair automation. Me? A dozen of us? Even a thousand of us? R&D and manufacturing and all that entails could hardly be justified by the kinds of sales figures they could generate. So it's completely unfair of me to compare pool tech to smart phone tech, when you think about how many people have a smart phone compared to how many people have pools, let alone pool automation. So the other way to look at this, arguably the fairer way to look at this, I supposed we should be grateful that any of what little there is exists at all, at any price...

If you're seeing $400 rebates, please point me in that direction. The best I've seen is $50-$100, so nothing that's going to offset the price difference for a larger VS pump.

Any suggestions on maybe moving this post or breaking it up into different sections of the forum to get deeper into my more specific questions?

I think I ended up with only a couple of $100 rebates after all the stuff I bought. I'm in CA, under P,G&E's thumb. They weren't being too generous when I upgraded.

I asked a similar question, way back when, about new threads. I was told it's easier for those here that are doing the real advising to have fewer threads, to maintain the context. Seems like all your questions are related enough to each other anyway. You're not even up to two-figure posts in this thread yet, you're probably fine as is...

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, +1 for VS pump. Yes, you can take care of a pool with two-speed. But a VS is sooo much nicer. I have a flow meter, so I dial in my flow rates for vacuum and solar. I reprogram and change speeds all the time, for seasons, and dirty filters and for all sorts of reasons. And I do believe they pay for themselves over time.

- - - Updated - - -

Check out this acid injection system!

Getting ready for SWG

Post #97 (See? Who needs a new thread!?) You can read before that if you're bored and are curious about the inspiration. It'll also give you a little insight into who you've be conversing with!! :blah:

 

[Arizonarob]

Dirk, I think you need a nice stiff drink!!! :calm:

 

[chiefwej]

To my mind the state of automation technology in pools is so far behind current standards that it’s not worth what they charge.
It would be like buying a new car and the dealer telling you that the only option for a sound system was a cassette player that cost an extra $1000. No, it won’t work with your cell phone and there is no way to change that. The car drives and works without the option, so until I’m offered something really worth the price, I’ll skip it. Perhaps, I’m just a bit “old school” though, since my car is a 6 speed manual transmission.

I do have a neighbor with a pool automation system, and other than which button to push, he has little understanding of how his own pool works. Doesn’t know which valve does what, or even the path of water flow. When he has a any problem at all, he either asks me for help, or pays $$ for a service call. That seems to be all too common with automation. If I can shift gears on my car, I can change modes of the pool, both without much of a problem. In both cases, I feel I have more control and understanding of exactly what’s going on. But, to each his own.

 

[Dirk]

Dirk, I think you need a nice stiff drink!!! :calm:

What makes you think I'm not already drunk?

 

[Arizonarob]

What makes you think I'm not already drunk?

No misspelled words in your rants!!

 

[rinaldok]

To be more clear, my questions weren't so much "IF" but "WHICH."

VS pump is a given, but which one, for example. Like I said I was leaning to the Pentair, was tempted by the off brand chinese ones because they were cheap, and then pulled toward Hayward once I started considering the automation as a piece of the puzzle. Plus, the new Hayward models have the built-in automation but I can't find enough quality info as to what the capabilities really are of what these pumps can/can't do.

The things I'm really hoping for help on are the differences between the two hayward control systems I linked, because after all my research I can't figure out if they're the same or not, and how to get a grasp on all the pieces that have to go into figuring this out. And some of the folks here who are in the industry might know of a better solution to do what I described trying to do, or maybe new products "coming soon", etc.

Now all that griping aside, I do have to give at least a little flip side, as I have before when I've embarked on this particular rant. The R&D numbers are just not there for Pentair or the others. How many people would actually buy anything, at any price, to integrate home automation (on a Macintosh, no less) with Pentair automation. Me? A dozen of us? Even a thousand of us? R&D and manufacturing and all that entails could hardly be justified by the kinds of sales figures they could generate. So it's completely unfair of me to compare pool tech to smart phone tech, when you think about how many people have a smart phone compared to how many people have pools, let alone pool automation. So the other way to look at this, arguably the fairer way to look at this, I supposed we should be grateful that any of what little there is exists at all, at any price...

It's not about how many people have phones vs. how many people have pools, that's not the correct sample comparison. The number of people with pools is the base market # for the pool equipment companies, so the question is "what percentage of pool owners would buy into a newer automation / smart integration", and I suspect that number is decently high to justify R&D. Now, if they were SMART, they would leverage existing tech. This could realistically be developed for relatively very little. However, if they continue to act like the auto industry and completely re-invent every technology (poorly), because "NIH" (not invented here), then what SHOULD cost relatively little to build by utilizing existing smart/automation tech will then turn into years and years of R&D, insane amounts of money invested, and an end product that's at the cutting edge of being 10 years outdated (again) *AND* cost the consumer an arm and a leg because now they have to recoup their costs that they've sunk into "inventing" what some 14 year old kid could have done better with a raspberry pi/arduino board and some open source microcontroller code. Seriously, what's so complicated about pool tech? Turn pump on. Adjust RPM. Turn light on. Change color (I have a $4 LED controller that I can fully program from my smart phone that controls multiple LED strips). Monitor a couple sensors which are almost certainly just voltage differentials of some sort. /rant

Check out this acid injection system!

Heh, well 2 points for creativity there but in the time that it would take me to pull out the rig and get it set up, I can just continue to carry the jug to the pool and pour my daily / bi-daily dose. That's what I'm looking to eliminate. If I can get through a week without having to pour something in the pool, I'll consider that a win. Right now I'm tired of dosing chlorine/acid. SWCG solves part of that. It seems like the Sense&Dispense and similar doodads aren't really very reliable (which begs the question -- why do they exist and why can't they make something that works?) but even just rigging up a couple buckets and stenner pump off a relay using the automation board... I don't know exactly how that would work but it seems entirely simplistic enough to be feasible and I know others have done it.

I hope this long(ish) post doesn't pull attention away from my original post, because that's where the meat of all the questions really is.

 

[rinaldok]

To my mind the state of automation technology in pools is so far behind current standards that it’s not worth what they charge. It would be like buying a new car and the dealer telling you that the only option for a sound system was a cassette player that cost an extra $1000.

Yes, it's very much like that. And the auto manufacturers continue to invest a ton into proprietary communication busses, proprietary NAV systems, etc. At least SOME auto manufacturers are getting a little smarter and supporting CarPlay / Android Auto, but that's only because the consumers spoke and refused to pay thousands for NAV system upgrade packages when their phone could do it better. We need a similar revolution in the pool world.

I also drive a 6 speed. I don't like it anymore.

I do have a neighbor with a pool automation system, and other than which button to push, he has little understanding of how his own pool works. Doesn’t know which valve does what, or even the path of water flow. When he has a any problem at all, he either asks me for help, or pays $$ for a service call. That seems to be all to common with automation. If I can shift gears on my car, I can change modes of the pool, both without much of a problem. In both cases I feel I have more control and understanding of exactly what’s going on. But, to each his own.

I think if one starts with automation and never learns what's going on underneath, yes that's valid, but in this case I'm all too familiar with the manual way of doing it, and I'm looking to make my life simpler by automating parts of it. I know how much acid my pool needs, but that doesn't mean I want to go pour it in every day or two if I can have a pump do it for me. Then I can enjoy my beer and do something else with my time.

I don't think I'll ever buy another manual transmission car, either.

 

[chiefwej]

I also drive a 6 speed. I don't like it anymore.


I don't think I'll ever buy another manual transmission car, either.

But, that’s probably because automatic transmissions have improved so much. They now get better gas mileage, shift smoother, and cost nothing extra to purchase. When pool automation improves like that, I’ll consider it.

 

[Dirk]

If I can get through a week without having to pour something in the pool, I'll consider that a win.

Me, too. I have to wait another half year or so before I'll know if my new pebble/SWG combo are going to stabilize enough to go a week or more without acid. It's only then that I'll start considering auto-dosers, for either chlorine or acid (my SWG is not a solution during my winter months). Will I tire enough of adding chlorine for four or five months of the year to justify Pentair's system? Will my pool need acid every other day, like it does now, forever? Or will I be adding it every other week? I don't have those answers yet. So I'm not shopping for dispensers yet.

And an acid dosing system makes me nervous. Too little or too much chorine, while not great, is not as critical to humans and pools as too little or too much acid. At least in my mind.

So I'm going to optimize the use of my SWG, and I'm going to streamline the acid-adding chore as much as I can (with Save-a-Deck®!!), and see. So far, so good. I'm actually enjoying the process. Having great feeling/looking water, knowing it is safe, no pool guy in the yard, saving $150 a month, etc. have so far justified the extra pool chores (I'm a convert from using weekly pool guy). I know that will fade. We'll see how long that lasts.

Interesting take on the pool tech. Yes, they could have gone the other way. The "NIH" concept. Right. I still remember the first time dealing with a new car and its ridiculous interface for the overhead light. How to work it. Fade in. Fade out. Stay on for a minute. Go off after a while, even while I'm still in the car?!? I'm like, what the h? They figured this out 50 years ago! One switch: off--on when door opens--on all the time. Why did this need to be reinvented!! Using standards, and with open source code and protocols, pool tech would have taken off. And been cheap. And amazing. Some bean counter must have done the math and figured out proprietary would make them more money. Providing good quality and good value for the consumer stopped getting seriously considered quite a while ago, in virtually every industry. So no help there. And like I said, (except for chiefwej) we all keep buying this junk, so maybe we only have ourselves to blame?

So... back to the OP. Sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack you. Theoretically my rants are bumping your original question, but I usually see questions like yours get more attention. I'll try something else, stand by...