Full Equipment Replacement and Adding Solar Questions

[jborders5]

Hi All-

Not sure if I should keep this as one post or split things up into the different sub forums with so many questions.... We're entering our second season of having a pool and had it re-tiled and re-surfaced it when we purchased the home. The equipment is a mess and I've been limping it along over the last year. I'm ready to start over at the equipment pad and will also be adding solar at the same time. Anyway, looking to get some advice on equipment replacement. Please note I'm stuck with a single 1.5" suction line from the pool. There are two 1.5" returns, one for the pool and one for an old spa. The spa does not have jets (only a single return) and the blower is gone. It's used as a kid pool now.

Cleaner:
Currently have a 12+ year old Polaris 280. The booster pump is the same age and has multiple leaks. I've replaced a few small parts on the cleaner over the last year. It looks like the same setup would be $700 - $800 depending on what timer is used. Does it make sense to go robotic instead? I assume it should also help with our power bill not having a booster pump on 2 hours a day. I'd want to keep the cost less than $1K.

Filter:
Currently a 48 Sq Ft DE. Looking at a Pentair FNS 48 or the Quad DE. The smallest Quad DE is a 60. Any concerns with a larger filter? I only saw a rise of 8 psi (started at 14) over the entire swim season on the current filter last year.

Pump:
Looking at an Intelliflo VS or VF. Current CA electric rates range from $0.13 to $0.35 and we spend a fair amount of time at the highest level when both AC units are running during the hot months. Is the internal flow meter on the VF worth the added cost or am I better off adding an external flow meter for the equipment pad and one for the solar for dialing everything in and do the math myself for turnover rates, etc.? Is there any benefit to change the equipment pad plumbing to 2"?

Solar:
Pool has a surface area around 400 Sq Ft. I'm going to add four to six 4' X 12' panels on the south facing roof with full sun. Right now I'm leaning towards Aquasol panels. Should I go with 2" headers or is 1.5" sufficient for 6 panels? The distance to and from the roof is very short. It's a couple of feet away from the pad and up one story. Current plan is to use a Pentair Solar Touch for automation.

Thanks for any advice!

The Mess (gas heater will not be reused):

Section of roof for solar (equipment pad on left):

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!!!

First, keep all your current questions together and it is easier to follow your story.

Cleaner: People love the 280. But robots are nice, but $$$. If you did decide to remove the pressure side cleaner, you could turn that into a second return to the pool

Filter: My pool is a similar size and I have the 60 ... hard to go wrong with a larger filter. BTW, we recommend backwashing when the pressure goes up 20-25% of the clean pressure ... for you that would have been by 18 psi.

Pump: There is really very little need to know the flow rate. If you want one, I think the Flo-Vis (http://tftestkits.net/Water-Flow-Meters-c12/) would be a good option on the check valve right after the filter. You could save a good bit of electricity by going with a ~1HP 2-speed pump (cheaper up front, although you probably get a rebate). You certainly do not need the power of the larger VS pumps with the small limited plumbing you have. There are smaller VS pumps which may be a good option (Hayward Superflo or Pentair i1). The VS will give flexibility to dial in the flow for solar.

I would suggest increasing to 2" pipe wherever you can on the pad to lower the head loss and increase flow rates.

Solar: The more panel area, the more heat ... although a cover helps a LOT to retain the heat. I would go with 2" headers myself just for lower restriction.

 

[jborders5]

Thanks for the reply. I've been researching solar plumbing layouts and notice many systems have a bypass valve to balance the flow to the panels when in solar mode. Given the fact I'm going to have a VS pump, should I still take that approach or should I send 100% of the return through the panels and control the flow with the pump?

 

[jblizzle]

Cheapest to run the pump at the lowest speed needed, so that would be full flow through the solar.

So no need for a bypass unless you think you may have a need for higher flow when solar is on.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[Isaac-1]

I am only going to address the solar part, as I just went through a major update / replacement of my solar heater system. If your only going to have 6 4x12 panels at most and a relatively short length of pipe from your pad to the panels you will likely be fine with 1.5 inch pipe / headers, the advantage to use 2 inch does not really show up until you get over 8 or 9 4x12 panels., most solar panels in this size range have an optimal flow rate of 4.5 - 5 GPM per panel, the natural gravity flow limit of water in a 1.5 inch pipe is about 48 GPM, and while there is some benefit to using 2 inch pipe to reduce restrictions in bends and fittings, it is minimum below this magic number. As to the need for a bypass fitting with a variable speed pump, I would say it is not necessarily needed, but will only cost you an extra $30 or so most of that is the cut off valve, and it is probably easier to install it while your redoing things, rather than find that you need it for some reason and have to go back and wedge it in.

Possible reasons you may need that bypass include needing more flow than 30 GPM flow (6 x 5GPM per panel) for your pool to function, this could be an SWG with a flow sensor that needs over 30GPM to activate, or it could be a circulation issue needing over 30 GPM for effective skimming, etc. What you DO NOT want to do is push more than the optimal amount of water through the panels, as this causes panel pressure to increase which shortens their lives.

see this link http://h2otsun.com/vahe.html (can't seem to make it clickable)

Ike

 

[jborders5]

Another question as I get things ordered... I want to replace the old wood board the timers are mounted to and I've noticed a couple of newer pools in my area have nice free standing metal panels. Anyone know a source?

 

[jborders5]

Solar panels should be here today and the rest of the equipment by the end of the week. I'm down to sourcing a few installation parts and miscellaneous fittings.... What should I use to mount the PVC pipe along the roof and wall for the solar install? I've seen everything from hose clamp brackets to two hole (galvanized?) brackets used. How tight should the pipes be mounted? I assume there will be some expansion and contraction with the temp swings.

 

[Isaac-1]

I used the U shape metal clamps and picked a size that would fit somewhat loosely along the PVC pipe (say 1/8 inch larger than the pipe) to allow room for the pipe to expand and contract, so far no problems with bowing, etc. Also don't forget to paint the PVC, standard PVC is not UV resistant. I painted mine brown to match the trim. Also remember the solar panels will expand and contract in length by a couple of inches, so don't rigidly support the point where the PVC pipe feeds the panel, instead allow some play there for it to swing, on mine most of the last section of PVC at the bottom of my panels is unsupported so it can move with them. Keep us updated tell us what you bought, and post photos of the install.

Ike

p.s. I prepainted the longer sections of PVC while they were still on the ground, leaving the last 3 inches unpainted so only the fittings and the short sections need to be painted at roof level.

 

[jblizzle]

From my reading, Clamps on the roof should be oversized to allow for the expansion, on the walls they should be snug.

 

[Isaac-1]

This may depend on the wall and situation, on my installation the supply and return lines run along a south facing wall, just below the roof line so likely get a good bit of thermal expansion and contraction, however the point where they are suspended vertically going down the wall, they are more secure, but this is also in a lower sun exposure area.

Ike

 

[jborders5]

Getting closer.... All of the equipment is on-site minus one valve & I hope to get the panels installed over the weekend. I've been scouring the net looking for install instructions from the various solar panel manufactures and need to determine how much slope I should allow for drainage. I've read everything from a 1/4" per lineal foot to 1" per 10' of run. Along with the 6 panels I'm also using 2 blank header sections to get around roof vents. I snapped a chalk line with an 8" drop over the run and seems really sloped compared to a lot of the other houses in my neighborhood. Any thoughts on the minimum slope needed? Also, I have two option for the panels. Option A looks like it may be better for drainage, but freezing is not really a concern. Option B would get the heated water to the pool faster, but I have no idea if an extra 40' matters. Thanks again for all the help with the project.

 

[jblizzle]

I would say B. Generally you want the warm water run the shortest, although the difference is likely pretty small.

Each should drain just as well. I would use a T in the lower right of B and put a hose bib there to open in the winter to ensure all the water is out.

 

[Isaac-1]

I too would go with option B, as to slope the important thing seem to be that you have some and not have any dips, I would say about .5 inch per panel would be enough to insure against dips, remember your roof may have points that sag, panels may walk some, etc.

 

[jborders5]

Thanks guys. Tunneled under the walk with little effort.

The last thing I need to figure out is the best way to mount the Solar Control. The plan is to run the existing conduit into a weather proof junction box and mount the Solar Control directly above it. I don't need too much room and could use a 4X4 post, but I'd prefer to not use wood. I went robotic for the cleaner, so I won't need room for a timer. Any ideas?

 

[Isaac-1]

Which solar controller are you going to use?

 

[jborders5]

Which solar controller are you going to use?

Pentair Solar Touch connected to an Intelliflo VS

 

[kevreh]

If its not too late I would upgrade to the suntouch for not too much more $$$. Mount it where its easy to see and adjust. In that pic it would be too low.

About the robotic cleaner, they do a good job but require more babysitting than a Polaris 280. I had a 'bot and sold it, love my polaris since I set it to run about an hour a day, with the suntouch.

Not to harp to much, but upgrading to something like a suntouch will integrate everything and time/automate everything.

Just my $.02.

 

[Isaac-1]

The VS pump will certainly make tuning for optimal flow easier, do you plan to also include a flow meter in your layout?

p.s. here is my 3 way valve, flow meter and pre panel pressure gauge setup, (actuator not yet attached to 3 way when photo was taken), layout wraps around so existing pipes line up with holes in the wall that go to solar panels. That is a T under the 3 way valve seen head on.

flow meter showing right at 40 gpm, and pressure gauge showing about 7 psi

 

[jborders5]

Thanks, I appreciate all the input. I just picked up an Auquabot Breeze 4WD and I'm not 100 % happy with it, but the Polaris 280 we had prior spent more time stuck on our steps than cleaning the pool. I have another week to decide whether or not to keep the Breeze. The pool upgrade is part of a full kitchen, three bath and 100 % flooring replacement throughout the house renovation project. I'm so far over budget right now I'm just pushing forward and will beg for forgiveness when the bills come in..... I'm lucky that I work out of the house so I get the opportunity spend a little more time watching over the pool. I was going to go SWG, but BBB with liquid is just too easy to justify the initial investment.

 

[jborders5]

The VS pump will certainly make tuning for optimal flow easier, do you plan to also include a flow meter in your layout?

p.s. here is my 3 way valve, flow meter and pre panel pressure gauge setup, (actuator not yet attached to 3 way when photo was taken), layout wraps around so existing pipes line up with holes in the wall that go to solar panels. That is a T under the 3 way valve seen head on.

flow meter showing right at 40 gpm, and pressure gauge showing about 7 psi

Yes, I'm going to use a FlowVis http://h2flow.net/h2flow/index.cfm/products/flowvis-flow-meter/ for the check valve after the filter.