Freezing and a 2-speed/1hp pump

[Cherie]

We're ordering our 2-speed 1hp pump on Friday and will install in the next couple of weeks. We're doing this so we can leave ours running on low 24/7 year 'round. We hard-plumbed the returns and will hard-plumb the rest of it when we install the new pump. Our pool is exposed to the north wind and high winds and it sits on an acre, with lots of room for the winds to pick up speed. We only buried the pvc about 6-8' (since we hand-trenched it) and there will be no wall or anything to protect the equipment or other hard-plumbed pvc coming off the pump and filter (unless I can twist DH's arm to get it built). Will the pump on low be able to circulate it well enough to keep any/all of it from freezing? You never know in Texas! Sometimes we get several days of really freezing cold and other times, we never even knew winter was here!

After reading on here about covers, I think I decided that we don't want to cover it, except for during the pollen season, where the bees might drown trying to get the pollen off the water!

 

[mas985]

I think it is hard to say but if you keep the water moving, it will probably take lower temps to freeze the water. Circulation will help to keep the water at a same temperature throughout so if you keep an eye on the water temperature and don't let it get too low, then you will probably be ok.

 

[Rob]

A couple of other ideas:

1) Keep exposed pipes insulated in the winter, you can buy those foam pieces that wrap around the pipes. Underground will be fine, but if your pool water gets too low, there is a chance that it could freeze in the lines where they are exposed to air.

2) Keep your water level a bit higher when it is below freezing, that way if you get a bit of ice on the top of the water, it won't have much of an impact.

 

[Cherie]

Thanks for the advice. I figure if we can get everything right this winter, then we'll have our summer AND winter routines down. This site has been so helpful. There's no way I could have learned all I've learned in such a short period of time, without this site.

Thanks all and have a great day!

 

[amjohn]

Cherie, we will be doing a similar thing this winter, and we live near you. Our pool and plumbing are all above ground, and not hard plumbed yet, but that is on the list to get done before winter, then insulate them somehow. We plan on running our pump on a timer at the coldest hours of the night, since we have too large of a pump to run full time and are not in a position to go with a 2 speed yet. We plan to only going to use a leaf cover for the fall, since we have many trees. Once they drop, not much will get into the pool, I hope.
I hope you will keep us up to date on your progress, since we are new, new, new as well and learning daily. We are leaving open the possibility that, if we get one of those colder winters, that we may have to winterize for real, but are waiting to see.
About your bees- have you checked to make sure they are not coming out of your eaves anywhere? That is common- we get wasps in the eaves often, and if you let them go and do not move them out, they will make a real mess of your walls/attic. The bees are starting to prepare their winter resting areas, which makes me wonder if they are making one near your pool, and that is why you are seeing so many.

 

[Cherie]

Hi emjohn. Yes, we do have wasps coming out of our eaves, which is not good. But we haven't had time to do anything about them yet. There aren't nearly so many hanging around these days. I hope that doesn't mean that they're in the attic/walls doing their stuff! The bees I've been rescuing from the pool are the little honey bees, as well as the gargantuan big bees, which I assume are connected to the honey business in some way - they have the hairy hind legs. Unfortunately, we aren't trapping any wasps in the skimmer - I would have little mercy for them!

I had originally wanted to hard-plumb, but leave the pipes on top of the ground under the decking (which we won't have for awhile) and just cover them with the foam insulation tubing. But DH said "NO" and he's right. Putting them in the ground was a better thing to do... as long as HE had to do all digging As suggested above, we will cover the above-ground piping with the insulation tubing and I don't know about the pool equipment yet. I just don't want to have to drain everything and take anything apart and all that mess. I just want to do it the lazy way, if I can find an adequate lazy way I expect if we at least get the little enclosure built around the equipment that it will keep the equipment from freezing up, like in case we lose power.

We're like y'all. We've only had our pool since May and I just feel like the mother hen and want to put the hat, coat, mittens and earmuffs on the pool "just in case"! Our case is a bit different in that we had our Doughboy buried - so we have extra things to be very careful of. Like if I mess something up and we have to replace the liner, that would not be good. If we drain our pool, chances appear strong that it would cave in from the ground pressure around it. I haven't studied all there is to that because I dread the day we have to replace the liner. So if I don't study it, I won't ever have to replace it, right?

I hope y'all have enjoyed your pool as much as we have. I would have enjoyed it more had I known for sure that the poofy stuff was only pollen. But NEXT SUMMER..... :sun:

I'm SO glad to have found this site and the wonderful moderators, who have made maintenance a no-brainer! I'll keep you posted on how ours goes. My main concern in this posting was that enough thrust/movement would be in the water, both in the pool and in the pipes, that we woudn't have to worry about freezing up. Our 1hp/1-speed pump runs us about $75/MO to run 10 hrs/day. The new 1hp/2-speed pump should run us about $36/mo to run it 24/7! I'll just need to remember to check the water level. That reminds me, I need to go order some more supplies from Duraleigh! Have a great day!

 

[amjohn]

Cherie, the big bees are probably what people around here call "carpenter bees"- more black than yellow? Big and hairy? The live in holes in the ground, old trees and stumps, and even wood piles. They pollinate the same things honey bees do and you will often see them hanging out together, but are much more aggressive- like wasps. They are the primary pollinators in my gardens, so I have learned to leave them alone, but if you have so many that they are ending up in your pool then you may have a nest near your pool. (My gardens are 10 feet from my pool and I am not getting the bees in the water).
If someone wanders into a carpenter bee nest, the bees will get very aggressive and could hurt someone. Also, do you have someone storing honeybee hives in your area? Or an old dead tree- the density of bees you are getting is a little odd for this time of the year, more like what you would expect in the spring, which makes me wonder if you have a nest somewhere in the vicinity of the pool.
I'm with you in not wanting to drain, winterize, cover and close. A lot of work for just a few months of winter. If this year is like the last few, I am expecting to be okay keeping the pool open- the only real freezes last year were January and February for a few nights. If it is like the mid 1990s, when we were breaking ice on the stock tanks all winter long, then we will have to drain everything.
We too are going to build some sort of enclosure around/over the pump setup, but not sure when that will get done. Ours is on the south side of the pool, so the pool wall itself will break the north winds- maybe that will help? We will probably build a small deck over the pump set-up- our main deck will be on the north side of the pool, and it would be nice to have some sort of platform on the south side to stand on to vacuum, fish leaves and bugs out, etc. It would also shade the pump/filter in the summer to reduce sun damage and shelter in the winter from freezes.
We still have to get it all hard plumbed, though. Right now, the "pipes" are just cheap corrugated hoses like you would get on your vacuum cleaner, if even that good. Definitely the weakest link in the chain.
We may also wrap the filter in a waterheater blanket to keep the winds off of it, with some "drape" over the pump- but still leaving room for it to breathe. Kind of like a teepee. I teepee plastic over my potted plants over nights when it is going to freeze, and they do real well- so seems like that ought to to be enough, unless someone here thinks that is a bad idea. Any thoughts from the experts on whether that is a bad thing to do?

PS I agree with you on how much help this forum is. I bought the TFTest kit without even really knowing about the forum because of the good reviews it got and because I am too far from the pool store to drive a water sample there everytime I need it. And, now that I have experience, I see the advantage. Unfortunately, I still got "pool stored" on fancy copper-based chemicals before I really understood the BBB method. And they won't take them back, unopened and unused, because they claim it is against the law: please!

 

[Cherie]

Just an update. We now have our 1hp 2-speed installed and all piping is pvc. We'll be wrapping the above-ground pvc, at the equipment, with insulation. We'll be wrapping the filter with an insulation blanket as well. I think I read in our booklet to the new pump not to wrap it in the plastic insulation or it could form condensation. Unclear on that point...maybe between the wrap and the unit itself. Also need to come up with a way to insulate the skimmer.

Now that the pvc is installed, the bottom of the skimmer is now buried, as are both return jets, since the pool is only about 6-8" out of the ground. The pvc is only buried about 8" down - so we hope that's deep enough to prevent freezing, given that the pool will catch the brunt of the north winds. But then, we're talking about Texas here!!

So my only concern at this point is the pump/motor itself. Everything else will be taken care of. We still don't have the wall built around the equipment, but hope to get that done in the next couple of weeks.

The very young silver-leaf maple, which is about 10' away from the pool, decided to drop some leaves into the pool. So I can't wait to see if we can just put the auto-cleaner in and just let it keep running on low. That would be so nice, since I've spent the entire season manually vacuuming. No more bees, but lots of water beetles and still backswimmers! We still have the poofy stuff and will probably go ahead and do an MA shock. But I need to see if the MA chlorine numbers are different after the temps drop to "cold"! Amjohn, is your pool still free of poofy stuff?

Looking SO forward to next summer now.

 

[amjohn]

Hi Cherie, glad to hear you got your pump in.
We have been working on "hard" plumbing and landscaping around the pool. Nothing fancy- just to keep mud and weeds from taking over. I'll get a picture on soon. We did not insulate the pvc yet, but will be building a shelter around the pump and filter. That, combined with the pool blocking the north winds, combined with an intermatic freeze timer, and we should be good unless we get some real winter weather. We may still insulate- working on that. I would be glad to see how your insulation turned out (picture?).
My poofy stuff story ended up taking an interesting turn. The poofy stuff had gotten real heavy, we had another contamination incident, and developed a layer of green algae on top of the yellow poof in mid-Oct. Decided pool season was over and removed the solar cover. Water temp dropped 10 degrees in 48 hours- guess it was time.
I shocked with bleach - a little over regular shock level, but not MA shock, but did it for about a week and a half- also vacuumed, brushed, and backwashed frequently. Got it good and clear.
This fall, we also acquired a skunk family living in the yard that we have not been able to relocate. "Pepe", one of the babies who is now half grown, likes hanging out around the pool, so we took the ladder off both sides to keep him from taking a dip. Out came the water-side of the ladder, and it was FULL of green algae. The way the ladder is configured, there was no way I could have brushed it out while I was shocking. I was really surprised, as the water was clear. My husband managed to drain part of the algae into the pool while he was removing the ladder, so I shocked for several more days. We took the pebbles out of the bottom of the ladder that held it down in the water and discovered they were covered with yellow algae. Bleached and rinsed them repeatedly. Hard to believe so few pebbles could contain so much stuff. More shocking.
During that time, the water temps dropped into the 60 degree level with the first freeze, end of October. Since then, the pool has been sparkly, except for leaves, and I have a leaf net on the pool, so we are getting them before they sink to the bottom (except for mesquite leaves). We also run the auto vac weekly, more or less.
I think in the final analysis, I had pollen to start, and then mustard algae/ green algae that came from the pebbles that had been in the bottom of the ladder. Pollen season takes a short break for now, so the bottom just has dirt and leaves for the time. I put in polyquat 2 weeks ago, and have been running the pump a few hours a day. It is quite lovely and clear- almost looks swimmable, until you check the temp and see that the water is 55 degrees- brr!
Next project - solar heater panels and a deck.

 

[Cherie]

WOW! You've had your hands full! So did you determine then that the poofy stuff, where our pictures are all identical, to be mustard algae? We have dirt in our pool now as well. Scott was saying, for a long time, that it was just dirt. He knows how different the two are now I think we'll still do the MA shock, when I get a minute to breath. We're trying to get the wall built around the pool equipment before the freezing weather gets here (yes, I know we're due to hit right at freezing in tonight and tomorrow night). Scott refuses to do anything with that until his workshop is finished. WEELLL, he finished it last weekend! And he has all next week off. So we'll be tackling the wall (I hope). I'll do pictures as soon as I can. I haven't been successful in downloading pictures on this site yet....that don't come out really big!!

Right now, we're battling ants. I had to put more poison around the pool this afternoon. And tomorrow will get grass killer around it. The bermuda is growing up all around it. I researched today to see how deep the roots go. You know how deep those roots can go? 47-59" !!! Our pool is buried 3'. So the bermuda can still grow all the way down and find it's way through the cracks in the Happy Bottom. Gosh, if it's not one thing, it's another. At least the poor little bees are gone for now. I think I'd rather have bees than skunks

Doing the shock for several days straight, did you notice any bleaching of your liner? With our pool being buried like it is, we can't risk anything happening to the liner. To replace it would cost us more than we could afford anytime soon. If we have to drain all the water out, our sides could easily collapse. That's one reason I've worked very hard to learn all this stuff and follow directions!

 

[MikeInTN]

Just wanted to add about the carpenter bees - they will and do bore into almost any wood surface. They make the prettiest 5/8" hole you'd ever want to see, and once they get in a 1/2" or so, turn 90 degrees and keep boring. I always battle them every spring around my storage buildings. Wasp spray works wonders.

 

[Cherie]

Hi Mike. Thanks on the carpenter bees. I guess we'd better look the house over really good. We know the wasps were going up into the eaves and I AM a little worried about what's up there now. May be better to just call an exterminator. Also, Scott just built a workshop this summer and is just now finishing it up. I'd hate to see holes bored into Unfortunately, now that his first day of vacation started today, he's at work the entire day -- and my goal was to get started on the MA shock today. After seeing amjohn's picture of their poof after they did the MA shock, I'm thinking maybe mine is not pollen after all. You know how it is, it is, it isn't, it is, it isn't............

Well, we didn't get down to freezing last night (actually supposed to get down to 32, but we stayed in the 40's), so we didn't get to test out the new 2-speed and freezing temps!

 

[MikeInTN]

Hey Cherie,

You'll know if you have carpenter bees boring in anywhere. They're really agressive, so if you're walking around your house or shop and come face to face with one that doesn't act like it wants to fly off, just back off a bit, and watch it to see where it goes, and you'll find the hole.

We got down in the teens last night, and it was spitting snow today while we were at the football game. My kind of weather! I'm going to start hanging Christmas lights this next week, and cool/cold weather puts me in the holiday mood!

 

[Cherie]

Hey Mike, you said the carpenter bees are the big fat black bees, right? Well, we've had some round holes in the ground, but don't see any around the house. And we didn't have too many of those. We had lots of wasps around the perimeter of the house and lots of honey bees in the pool. But we had thousands of tiny little white flowers in the yard (we're on an acre). I don't there are any nests around our house, other than the wasps in the attic. We'll need to check the attic out. I may just have a professional do that.

We're working on getting the wall built around our equipment this weekend. Sure will be nice to get it all done. I LOVE the 2-speed pump and wish we'd done that at installation. Oh well, you learn as you go, right?

amjohn, I can't seem to find the right size of insulation tubing for our 1.5" pipes and the 3/4" split doesn't fit all the way. So I'm working on that today and hope to have it done by tomorrow!!

Thanksgiving is on it's way....yea!

 

[amjohn]

Well, we finally got our pump "hard-plumbed" and rock around the pool. Our Intermatic timer is doing it's job too. We had three days of freezing drizzle and fog. The pool pump ran the whole time from the cold temps, but no problems. Our electric bill is letting me know that we should have gone with a 2 speed pump. We let the pool store talk us out of it, and now I know- don't believe them!
It is 75 degrees today, so I am cleaning the pool before the next ice storm moves in. Below are some pictures.
The pump is done with flex-PVC, and there is extra pipe before the return to work in our soon to be solar heater. We will be building a shelter type thing over the pump and filter set up to protect it from the brutal heat of the sun. Also from the flying ice in winter.

 

[Cherie]

Nice job, amjohn! How do you plan to keep the grass and weeds out of the rocks? We have bermuda in our back yard and it's grown all the way up to the pool. I put killer on it a month ago, but it looks like a few sprigs lived. That stuff is impossible to kill. The trail that the installer left with his backhoe, traveling back and forth to dump our dirt (which we asked to keep) killed everything in it's traveling path, and wouldn't ya know it, solid healthy burmuda came back in where those tracks are!! And that was with NO watering all summer! So I'm really concerned about keeping the bermuda away from the pool, since it's root system can grow 60" deep! Our pool is only buried 36" deep, except for the 7' deep end.

But you did a really nice rock job....wanna come to Wylie and do ours now? We haven't built our wall around the equipment yet - just put a board up to keep the north blizzard off it. But I did get the pipes wrapped in insulation piping. I'll put pictures up when I get the time to get out there and snap some, and learn how to post them on here so that they're not bigger than the whole screen, like the last ones I posted.

The freeze, which kept us below freezing for a few days, didn't do any freezing at all - we kept the pump on low the whole time. I've turned it off for the last couple of days, just to take a break. The neighbors' leaves keep blowing into our skimmer and it was REALLY clogged up for at least a day before I remembered to go check on it and empty it. I'm going to make dh put his hands in that freezing water to hook up my manual cleaner so I can do a good clean tomorrow and hope it'll stay clean until we can figure out how to do a cover like we want!

But winters aren't scaring me so much anymore :-D

 

[amjohn]

Cherie- well we did not get a shelter built before this next cold front- we are freezing again already as I right this. We had ice covering the rails of the pool during this last week, but the pump kept running and everything stayed good.

I have lots of experience killing Bermuda grass- I spray Round-up several times during the spring/summer/fall growing season. It is a battle- the solution is to never quit. You are right- it never quits growing, and the more you stir it up, the better it grows. Round-up works well, but there is no permanent solution. I will keep the Bermuda killed back from the edge of the rock. I actually keep a hand spray bottle of it (like a windex bottle) mixed up at all times in the summer and hit any little spots that are starting before they get out of control. We have gravel drives and have to spray them fully about 3 times during the summer as well.

Note on pictures- use a photo editor (even just the basic editor in windows) and reduce the size of your picture to 3 inches wide, while letting the height change in proportion to the width. I know that seems small, but that is the size that I make mine before I post them here. It may vary some depending on your camera, but you will find it to be somewhere in that range.

 

[launboy]

Nice job with the plumbing. Bet that Flex was expensive though. At least now you never have to worry about a line tearing open. Happened to me this summer.

BTW, I've never seen a pump like that. Is that the actual pump or is that some type of case with a removable pump inside?

Adam

 

[budster]

Launboy, if I'm not mistaken, that's a Doughboy pump. As to freezing, and using "circulation" to prevent damage, it generally works just fine with one caviat: remember that even waterfalls can freeze solid, depending on the temp!

 

[Cherie]

LOL.....launboy, how did you know I had your name in my last post, before removing it to say something else? I was saying "...but I'm sure launboy will jump in here any minute and tell us how to do this" on a cover issue!! Go on, tell me how you knew...I'll wait!

amjohn, we're finishing up our wall today (yea) and will probably re-wrap the pipes, since the only tape I had at the time I did them was ... (yeh, go ahead and laugh) masking tape! So other than getting some type of insulation around the skimmer bottom, I think we're probably done -- unless we go ahead and wrap the filter. I'm hoping the wall around it now will take care of any need to do anymore wrapping.

I wonder if you had ice on your pool and we didn't, given how close we are, is because yours is AG and ours is partially buried.