Does Bleach/Liquid Chlorine have a PH factor in it?

[reindeerboy]

I have a question. I started using BBB now for about a month. The water looks great.

However, my question is that the bleach must have a ph factor in it correct? I remember reading that liquid chlorine of 12.5% has a PH factor of 13? Maybe this is why I have stopped having to use any PH up now that I quit using the pucks as trichlor must have a PH of 3 or so if I remember correctly.

I was curious because I now have to use MA to bring town the PH/TA in my pool that I have never had to do. I am not complaining at all as its fairly close to the same price between Borax and Baking soda around here, maybe a little cheaper per gallon if you buy it in bulk.

The good thing is I can get all of this in town and not have to go to the pool store as that is 100 miles away.

I still buy some minor things from them like a metal controlling agent, water tests, and some Liquid Chlorine and when I asked them this question, guess what? No one there could give me a straight answer about it!

So maybe chem geek, this may be one for you? I just want to know as everything is going well.

Had the inlaws over today and one group had an above ground and when I started to visit with them about the difference in Chlorines out there, they really had no clue as to what I was talking to them about. When I mentioned BBB, they still had no idea, and when I explained to them what it was, they thought I was crazy to put bleach in the pool :lol:

Well anyway, I was just wondering. Sorry I am a bit lenghly here in my post.

Thanks for any information you can offer.

 

[JasonLion]

Bleach raises the PH when added and then as the chlorine gets used up the PH comes down again to almost exactly where it started.

Trichlor lowers the PH when added and then as the chlorine gets used up the PH goes down even further.

 

[reindeerboy]

Thanks Jason

That answers my questions! Appreciate it!

And Boy it was a hot one here today 95 out! :-D

 

[chem geek]

Rudy,

Since you say you are seeing a net pH rise when using bleach, this is mostly due to the outgassing of carbon dioxide from the pool. That was a nice thing to have when you were using Trichlor as it helped prevent the pH from dropping as quickly as it otherwise would, but now with your use of bleach you don't want this. To reduce the effect, you can lower the TA level -- you didn't report what yours was. In fact, you should post your entire set of numbers, but most especially the pH, TA, CH, CYA and typical temperature numbers. Also, the type of pool you have -- plaster/gunite or vinyl or fiberglass.

Some bleach is higher in pH than others. It seems that Clorox Regular is at around 11.4 so has a minimal long-term effect on pH. Many off-brand Ultra bleaches have a pH of 12.5 so have a small net increase effect on pH -- with 2 ppm FC per day this is around 0.2 unit increase in pH per month. This is due to a small amount of "excess lye" added to bleach and chlorinating liquid for stability, but different brands have different amounts of this "excess".

Richard

 

[reindeerboy]

Thanks Richard.

In my sig it should say vinyl liner. 18x32 pool with sand filter.

My numbers as of tonight

FC - 4
cc - 0
tc- 4
ph - 7.2-because I added MA this morning
TA-140
CH-200
CYA-70

The CYA was 80 a month ago and has now dropped due to me not using the Trichlor anylonger. I knew bleach had a small rising effect on PH so that is why I had to switch to using a bit of MA.

Pool temp is 83. Clear and sparkling clean.

I have a pretty good hold on the numbers and thanks to Daves kit, I have been able to test this very accurately now and keep a pretty good eye on things.

I am loosing about 1.5ppm when the pool gets used on the weekends much more than the weekdays due to sunlight loss, but during the week and minimall use its only been .5 - 1 ppm in CL loss. Not bad at all.

I have been usling the ultra bleach or 12.5% ph as you have stated so that will explain the switch over in having to use the MA.

I dont have any problems using it, but was more curious as to the chemical makeup of it and giving me a better guage on amount I think I will need a month in MA to keep a handle on it.

I am an accountant/loan officer with an Agricultural place called Farm Credit Services and number crunching is what I do, so doing the math and messing with the chemistry of things is really interesting to me.

Again, always trying to learn new and different things to keep the mind sharp. Thanks Richard!

 

[chem geek]

Rudy,

Sorry I missed reading your sig. Your TA of 140 ppm is usually too high for a pool using a hypochlorite source of chlorine such as bleach or chlorinating liquid. You should find that lowering it via this procedure in the Pool School should reduce the rate of rise and the amount of acid you need to add.

Unfortunately, one cannot readily predict how much Muriatic Acid you will need at various TA levels since the amount of aeration is also a factor. However, roughly speaking the amount of outgassing of carbon dioxide is apparently related to the square of the TA level (according to recent sources I've read -- I used to think it was linearly related) so if you were to get your TA down to 80 ppm, for example, you would reduce the amount of acid you would need to add by almost a factor of 4 and the rate of pH rise would also be lowered by somewhat more than a factor of 2. You can tell us if that's true for you if you lower your TA level. :-D

I can tell you that with your numbers, lowering the TA to 80 will take a cumulative total of about 31 cups of Muriatic Acid -- just under 2 gallons. Obviously, it's not added all at once, but is added to lower the pH and to keep it low while aerating the pool until you get to the desired 80 ppm TA.

Richard

 

[reindeerboy]

Richard,

Thanks. dont you guys sleep! :-D

OK, tested it just now. TA is at 120 and PH is at 7.2 abouts.

I have been adding about 2 -4 cups a day to gradually bring this down and then actually throwing my kid in the pool along with myself to do more aeration of the pool. I am contemplating hooking up a little fountain to the return get and place it in the pool to help with the aeration process while I am getting the TA down at the same time.

The TA was 190 4 days ago and that came from the pool dudes. I tested the same that day so I know my test results are on with the TF100. I have added about 1.3 gallons of MA thus far to get this down and will continue the process today and over the next week.

I may have to get some refills on my TF100 as a few reagents are getting a bit low, but thank goodness I have that thing. I am now confident in my testing results. I even have some of those dumb test strips yet and they are coinciding with the acurate results I am using with the TF100.

I did read that article in the pool school area Richard so I did have that covered when I discovered I had an issue with the TA/PH. I am getting a grasp on this baby now.

I sure appreciate the responses you guys have given me, and am glad that this forum is here. Man, I remember last year and my wife was ready to string my AXX up. Her exact words by the way. :lol:

Things are better this year and will continue to be. Thanks for the support system you guys put out. Oh and tell Sean that when he puts out the newsletter, that the Bio on each of you has no name notated in it anywhere so the guy who is talking about himself this last time, we have no idea who he is? At least I couldnt find a name anywhere!

Thanks again buddy! Beautiful day today here in ND. Mid 80s, sunny, and an awesome day to be in the water!