Deck, shell, equipment, and water are bonded but I'm seeing .5-1VAC and getting shocked

[c4guy86]

Hello all,

New to the forums. I've searched and found a lot on bonding, but nothing specific to my experience. ild

I just had my in ground pool built. It is a vinyl liner with salt water generator and heater. The pool was bonded by an electrician. I inspected the bonding and process. The entire perimeter loop was installed, the bonding wire was fastened to the metal walls in four places, the diving board, cups for ladder, auto cover, and all equipment is bonded with #8 solid copper. There are also several direct bury pool bonding lugs in use. I believe that the perimeter, shell, ladder, cover and diving board were a continuous loop. Cant be certain. That wire connects with another wire that goes to my pool equipment. From there there are several connections made. I'm not sure why so many connections, but they are done with the appropriate bonding lug.

So I noticed I get a tingle with open skin, while touch my pool deck and the water or the ladder and the water. I measure with my meter set on VAC, one lead in the pool and the other lead on the ladder the voltage fluctuates between a half to a full volt AC. I should also mention there is a water bond installed. Its connected with the #8 bonding wire. Its an inline sacrificial water bond.

I was concerned the water bond wasn't working due to the water being at a different potential than the other bonded parts of the pool. To make sure that the water bond was connected to the bond around the pool, I took a long #10 wire, and connected it into the water bond lug, ran it down near my pool and measures resistance from that wire to the ladder and measured .4 ohms. I also did this same measurement to the bonding wire on the auto cover frame and measured the same.

This baffled me because that indicated that the #8 bonding wire was in fact attached up at the water bond and down to my pool. While doing this I noticed something. With on lead in the water, and the other lead just sitting idle on the deck, my meter was reading about .2VAC. I took the other end of the #10 wire that I was using to measure resistance, I dropped it in the water, and my meter dropped to .05 or lower VAC. I measured one lead in the water and one lead on the ladder, and it was about .1VAC, down from between .5 and 1. Also with the other end of the wire directly in my pool water the shock was barely noticeable.

I than stripped more of the #10 wire back, from .5 inches previously to about 3". The voltage dropped even more and the shocking went away. This had me believing that the water bond wasn't working. I'm not sure this is entirely far, as water has more resistance than my wire, but if the water is bonded, I shouldn't see this much potential difference.

I contacted my pool contractor and we walked through the bonding process, and my pool is the same as every pool he installs, using the same equipment. I was a little suspect of the location of the water bond, which was after my chlorine generator. Right after my heater is a check valve which should keep the pool water in constant contact even when pump is running. Oddly enough, the values for voltage and shock are the same when the pump is running or not running. So even with the pump off, if that plumbing bled off, surely with the pump on that pipe would be full.

I've gone back and forth with electrician and pool contractor, and there very well may be stray current in the ground, which is probably more than likely, however the pool bonding process is supposed to mitigate this. I did disconnect my main switch to my house and the shocking and voltage potential exists. I have not disconnected neutral from my house from the utilities yet, but this might be a next step.

What has me really baffled, is why can I drop a wire in the pool connected back at my water bond, the water seems bonded, but without it the water is not bonded. The pool contractor agreed to install a second water bond, closer to the pool and below the water level. This second water bond had absolutely no impact. In fact, if I connect my meter, and disconnect or reconnect the water bonds, the change is minimal. I drop a wire connected to the bond wire, in the pool and the issue is totally eliminated.

I have LED lights in the pool, fiberglass steps, and in wall ladder with hand rails. No ladder connection to the pool water. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Sorry for the long post, but wanted to cover everything, but its possible I left something out. I've done a lot of testing, and can't help but feel this is a very simple fix, that i'm just overlooking.

 

[mas985]

Welcome to the forum!

I did disconnect my main switch to my house and the shocking and voltage potential exists.

Did that include the pool equipment as well? All power to all equipment and devices on the property cut off at the breakers?

If so, then yes, the source is likely off property. We just went through this for another member.

*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

The issue: When entering or exiting the pool through the shallow end, and you grab the railing you are feeling like you are being shocked. This is not happening anywhere else in the pool. The deep-end ladder isn't demonstrating this issue. Info: The pool was built in 2003 and is bonded with a...

www.troublefreepool.com

If it is off property, it may be time to get the power company involved. They have equipment to find stray voltage a lot easier than you can. But you can read through some of the suggestions on that thread however, I would not lift a neutral. Leave that to the PC.

 

[c4guy86]

Welcome to the forum!


Did that include the pool equipment as well? All power to all equipment and devices on the property cut off at the breakers?

If so, then yes, the source is likely off property. We just went through this for another member.

*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

The issue: When entering or exiting the pool through the shallow end, and you grab the railing you are feeling like you are being shocked. This is not happening anywhere else in the pool. The deep-end ladder isn't demonstrating this issue. Info: The pool was built in 2003 and is bonded with a...

www.troublefreepool.com

If it is off property, it may be time to get the power company involved. They have equipment to find stray voltage a lot easier than you can. But you can read through some of the suggestions on that thread however, I would not lift a neutral. Leave that to the PC.

Thank you for the welcome!

I've read about stray voltage and am on board with potential differences in the earth, but isn't this what pool bonding is supposed to mitigate? If everything was properly bonded there should no potential or much less than I'm seeing.

The water bond is really baffling me. Why can I throw a wire in the pool (stripped 3") and the issue is mitigated but two water bonds have no effect.

If I drove a ground rod in the ground, and another 10' away and connected my meter I would see voltage potential difference. But if I bond them directly, that difference doesn't exist any more because they are at the same potential. Bonding pool should achieve the same. Granted wire does have higher resistance, even the mineral content can impact the resistance of water. Has to be something simple right?

Thank you again for your reply.

 

[mas985]

The bonding helps mitigate the issue but may not always eliminate them. The issue with water is that it does have resistance so even though parts of the pool are bonded, if there is one location where voltage is introduced, it can still shock you even with everything else bonded because voltage differentials can still remain.

The water bond is really baffling me. Why can I throw a wire in the pool (stripped 3") and the issue is mitigated but two water bonds have no effect.

Again, it depends on where the water is bonded. Local bonding is always going to be better than remote bonding. Although I would have expected the pool walls to be sufficient. Some of the bonding may have failed.

But you did not answer this question:

When you shut off power, was all the power off on the entire property including the pool equipment? And the voltage remains, correct?

 

[Bperry]

I’ve got a friend with a vinyl pool as well with this issue sometimes and it seems the few other members with the problem also have vinyl. Is there a rationale for why that might be or is it just dumb luck?

 

[tim5055]

I have never been a fan of pool water bonding being in the equipment pad pipes. I personally like the skimmer bonding plates myself, but have no evidence ot prove they are better.

Here is an example from Amazon. I've never used one, but have heard good things about them.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B008SEL9NC?tag=amz-mkt-fox-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-org00-win10-dsk00-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp&ref=aa_scomp

 

[mas985]

I’ve got a friend with a vinyl pool as well with this issue sometimes and it seems the few other members with the problem also have vinyl. Is there a rationale for why that might be or is it just dumb luck?

Vinyl and fiberglass shells are not conducting so there is no way to bond the shell. Bonding the metal walls in a vinyl pool doesn't bond the water as it is not in contact so you need something else like a light niche or the above skimmer bond.

 

[c4guy86]

The bonding helps mitigate the issue but may not always eliminate them. The issue with water is that it does have resistance so even though parts of the pool are bonded, if there is one location where voltage is introduced, it can still shock you even with everything else bonded because voltage differentials can still remain.


Again, it depends on where the water is bonded. Local bonding is always going to be better than remote bonding. Although I would have expected the pool walls to be sufficient. Some of the bonding may have failed.

But you did not answer this question:

When you shut off power, was all the power off on the entire property including the pool equipment? And the voltage remains, correct?

Yes, I shut off my my main disconnect, no power to my house. The issue remained.

I was worried about remote bonding, the water bond that is being used is like this:

Perma-Cast Pool Water Bonding Kit

Buy a Above Ground Perma-Cast Pool Water Bonding Kit. A properly bonded pool means a safe swimming environment for your family and friends.

www.thepoolfactory.com

I have two of these now, one by my equipment, that is 30' away distance, not plumbing distance from my pool. The second is below the water line 8' away, not plumbing distance.

An update, if I disconnect the bare wire earth ground in my sub panel the issue goes away completely. Once again if I disconnect the earth ground from my home main box feeding the sub panel the issue stops.

With this information, is it really stray voltage from the earth or something being introduced through the electrical and/or equipment?

Thank you again for your reply.

 

[mas985]

An update, if I disconnect the bare wire earth ground in my sub panel the issue goes away completely. Once again if I disconnect the earth ground from my home main box feeding the sub panel the issue stops.

Yes, that is typical because you are removing the current path back to the power company (i.e. breaking the circuit and isolating the pool). The voltage is still there but now, everything is at the same voltage instead of at different voltages. The bond connection to the house ground forces the bond wiring and everything connected to it to the same potential as neutral (0v) but it is not forcing the water voltage to 0v for some reason.

With this information, is it really stray voltage from the earth or something being introduced through the electrical and/or equipment?

Yes, it is stray voltage that is being caused by an outside source. There is probably a voltage source of unknown size off the property somewhere. It could be one of many different things. You really need the PC involved with this. Otherwise, it is going to be nearly impossible to narrow down the cause. Just read through the other thread.

Your house or power system is not the cause since when you shut it off, the problem still exists.

Regarding the water bond, are those installed with the bonding side up? Do they extend down into the cross pipe? Just wondering if air gets in there and is not purged, does it disconnect the bond.

The pump housing is bonded, correct?

 

[Newdude]

Just read through the other thread.

+1. Take the time and read the thread. You will see the difference from ‘How can there possibly be foreign voltage in your backyard’ to ‘Holy SMOKES !!! How come there isn’t MORE voltage in your backyard’.

besides the layout of the neighborhood which may or may not fit your area, There is PAGES of helpful thoughts and processes. It’s worth your time, I promise.

 

[c4guy86]

Regarding the water bond, are those installed with the bonding side up? Do they extend down into the cross pipe? Just wondering if air gets in there and is not purged, does it disconnect the bond.

Yes, bonding side up. It does seem as if the water bond is not contacting the water, but I just don't see how that could b

The pump housing is bonded, correct?

Yes, pump housing, and heater are bonded.

 

[dianedebuda]

When I rebuilt my pad, I used WaterBonder, a stainless steel pipe fitting. I put it on the Main line from the pool to the pump because it always has water in it. Somehow I just didn't trust ones like you've shown, but that's just me. Picture taken before I added the bonding wire.