Concrete Collar for Stone Coping on steel wall

[Pittdave79]

Hi

Im looking for opinions on the collar pour. Father in Law claims he can pour both the collar and the sidewalk as one piece, and place the stones later. He says he is afraid to get concrete on the stones if they are placed first. I told him that sounds like a bad idea and risky if the forms are off. He demanded an answer why i think that, and the only answer i had was that i havent seen anyone else try it that way. I also think it would require more concrete and thus and increased expense, as i cant imagine a stepped slab like that being strong enough at the union of the collar and the sidewalk without thensidewalk being poured deeper.

Am i off base? He worked in concrete for many years and i did not.

 

[jamjam]

So you have a steel wall pool under construction and currently there is no concrete collar and you want stone coping and a concrete pool deck?

If so - you are probably going to want the concrete collar that supports the coping to be mechanically separated from the pool deck. To me it sounds like you want to install the coping first then do the pool deck.

 

[Pittdave79]

That's correct. Father in law is basically upset that i would challenge his plan for pouring the concrete. I believe he is well intentioned in only wanting to have the concrete truck coming one more time, but I planned for two more, possibly 3 more concrete days. My problem is he demands an answer why he cant do it his way and it is creating tension. Telling him im paying for it isnt good enough for him. So im looking for a good explanation that he can understand as to why we should not join the coping collar to the rest of the concrete deck pour. He has me flustered at this point. Again, im not a concrete guy and only have minimal experience, and only know that nobody else with this setup has poured these as one unit...And my problem is he has 20 years of concrete experience and i have none, and he knows that.

 

[jamjam]

does he have pool experience? I am not an expert @jimmythegreek might pop in and confirm - but from my experience doing my pool and from hanging out here I think best practice is to keep the pool deck and the coping mechanically separated. Even if you do a concrete cantilever you would have it mechanically separated from the pool on the underside. If your concrete collar locks into the steel (which if you have a standard steel wall it will) then you don't want your pool deck to lock into that. If you measure everything out properly and you keep the pool deck pour separate from the collar pour then in theory you will be fine, you can then install the coping last.

some things you will need to know ahead of time is the thickness of the coping you plan to install and the mortar bed depth at the back (for proper slope away from the pool). Once you figure out that you will have the height of the top of the back edge of the coping and you will know the height to pour your deck. Confirm with your FIL that he will be keeping the collar and the pool deck separated.

 

[jimmythegreek]

It can be done his way in normal construction, but with pools the idea is to have some fudge behind the coping. Concrete as a mass has expansion and contraction with the season, you dont want the mass attached to the pools structure. Also you are then committed to finish height of the concrete amd coping needs to be adjusted as you lay them. The mix for the collar needs plasticizer and unless you are pumping the mix in for the deck you dont want it in the deck pour. It's very easy to tape and plastic off the coping for a deck pour. Also leave a slight gap for a caulk joint behind the coping.

 

[Pittdave79]

It can be done his way in normal construction, but with pools the idea is to have some fudge behind the coping. Concrete as a mass has expansion and contraction with the season, you dont want the mass attached to the pools structure. Also you are then committed to finish height of the concrete amd coping needs to be adjusted as you lay them. The mix for the collar needs plasticizer and unless you are pumping the mix in for the deck you dont want it in the deck pour. It's very easy to tape and plastic off the coping for a deck pour. Also leave a slight gap for a caulk joint behind the coping.

You mention a plasticizer...Is the purpose for that soley for strength? Getting close to this step. Bonding inspection next week. Also, given that we want max flexibility due to expansion and contraction, should the coping collar not be poured to go under the steel wall flange? I was planning under the flange and back another 8 inches for a total pour width of 15-ish inches. Thanks again!

 

[jimmythegreek]

Plasticizer simply makes the concrete "wet amd runny" without adding water and weakening it. If you are doing coping stones you want the collar under and around the steel wall cap. Only go as far out as the coping amd stay a little inside that number. You dont want the concrete deck sitting on a lip of coping concrete base. You want 2 seperated items

 

[Pittdave79]

thank you this is a big help