Cloudy water wont uncloudy ..

[supertune]

Hi guardwife2 and welcome to TFP.

Generally most of us use a better test kit to start this process of cleaning a swampy pool such as yours. Your lack of a FAS-DPD test kit and good test #'s make this very hard.
See here:
http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html
and for the FAS-DPD kit here:
http://tftestkits.net/FAS-DPD-Chlorine- ... t-p47.html
The FAS-DPD chlorine tester will test chlorine two ways, Free Chlorine (FC)
and Combined Chloramines. (CC).

This type of tester uses 10ml of pool water and a small scoop of FAS powder to turn the water solution bright pink (if there is chlorine present) then while swirling the sample add drops of reagent until solution turns clear, each drop counts as .5 chlorine. so 20 drops would be 10ppm of chlorine.
In the shocking process, you follow this CYA chart here:
pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock

You use the shock level of chlorine you need to maintain (ALL THE TIME) for what CYA you have.
Lets say you have 40 CYA in your pool water, then 16ppm of chlorine needs to be added to pool water get to this amount, then keep testing every hour until you see that the chlorine level is holding and staying there at 16, NO LESS EVER...follow the Shocking Process until you pass the three tests outlined here:
1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm,
2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and,
3. The water is crystal clear.

If your unable to follow this process in this manor, your just close guessing at what your adding for chlorine and what level are you keeping at all times?
Your having a hard time by not having the proper tool like the FAS-DPD test kit. I'm a machinist and without proper tools my job would be very difficult to do. Same for what your trying to do.
I hope I helped you understand a bit more as how this method works.

I was in the same shoes as you a little over a year ago...green pool and pool store helped some but was never happy with water quality and comfortable understanding what was going on with my water.
TFP has cured this and now I have even a bigger pool and enjoy perfect water everyday and never have to shock my water because I can be the boss of it and control my chemistry through testing.

Chuck

 

[guardwife2]

thanks for the advice but im getting VERY frustrated. I just bought this 6 way test kit today..per comments in prior posting. It is actually reading simular scores of my old 2 way I was using and one test strip. I live in a smal small town of 800 people. I can't just run into town so Im doing what I can with what I have. I posted numbers over and over again and all I keep getting is "get a test kit", which I have. I have seen the test kit I bought today being used in other posting so im not sure why I can't use it? It should have good readings. Not yelling at you or trying to be nasty but I need some advice on what else to do. I can't keep adding gallons and gallons of bleach...I need advice. And I can't afford a 70 dollar test kit at the moment so this is the best I can get and like I said...I am getting simular test results with my new 6 way test kit as my prior test results 2 way test kit and strips. So based off of those readings and my prior ones I need to know what my next step is? I do realize I have to keep adding bleach/Chlorine till I have no over night lose but then what? It also shows my Alk is high...so should I start adding Alk ph-?

Just feel like I am banging my head against the wall asking same thing and getting no help/results. Im about ready to just close the Dang thing and forget about it.

thanks for the help and nice pictures of your pool..My pool was like that last yr..this yr not so much.

 

[supertune]

Hi Again,
This is the FAS-DPD kit you can add to what you have now and get it for $26 + few for shipping:
http://tftestkits.net/FAS-DPD-Chlorine- ... t-p47.html
Generally we adjust only the pH first at the start of clearing a pool.
Shocking process works better for the chlorine if you have the pH about 7.2
Next, check CYA, do it a couple of times during brightest time of the day.
This will establish the level you need to shock your pool at.
Next use pool calculator to help determine how much to put chlorine (6%bleach or higher 10-12% Liquid Chlorine) both are the same other than the strength, you put this value in the calculator to reach how much you need to reach your shock value.
I just don't know of a way to determine chlorine levels above 10ppm with a std color match kit that you have.
I know you can do the chlorine color match test using 1/2 distilled water with 1/2 pool water then when you see color at 5 its about 10, this would work if you knew you were at 20ppm or less with your CYA. I do know that burnt orange is about 20, but that is a guess and not very accurate to use to pass the OCLT. (overnight free chlorine loss test).
I'm sorry I don't have all the solutions that might work for you other than a drain, scrub, and refill for a fresh start with new water.
If you keep hitting it really hard with chlorine and you are above your shock value number, you will win as the algae will die off and as long as the filter is working, brushing pool, and you can backwash clean it lets say when it hit 4 more psi than when clean, it will clear up. Some very bad pools here have taken up to 3 weeks to clean up. POP is always suggested.
(pool owner patience)
My pool is 14 psi clean, I notice when I get to 18psi the flow is weak out the return and I need to backwash.
TA and CH can be worked on when the pool is cleared up.
pH, CYA, and chlorine level with filtering are what's important now.
Chuck

 

[supertune]

Also,
Once the shocking process is started, and chlorine levels are above 10ppm, do not test pH.
pH test is not valid when above 10ppm chlorine.

C

 

[frogabog]

The HTH 6-way kit is good enough for nearly all of the tests you need to do. Except, unfortunately the most important one. This is why you need a FAS-DPD kit to complete your HTH 6-Way.

You can buy the refill reagents now, because you've got all the tools you need in your HTH kit except the tiny little scoop.

At TFTestkits.net you can either buy TFTestkits reagents, which are of larger quantities, or you can buy the Taylor reagents which are a bit cheaper (~$3 each). TFTestkits are a better value though.

You need:
R-0870
R-0871
R-0003
R-0013 (CYA reagent)
blue tiny scoop ($.15)

Add these reagents to your kit, and you're good to go. It's not generally recommended here to get the HTH kit, but it's better than nothing and far far better than strips. It's also on the shelf at walmart, so when someone wants a kit we say ok, get the HTH for now. It's better than nothing but you still need the FAS-DPD portion to be able to test Total Chlorine and to be able to test chlorine at all over 5ppm. For shocking, you need to be able to test at shock level and that is not, and will never be anywhere close to 5ppm in any pool.

As you go ahead with your testing, just dip a strip in to compare to. You'll start to see some variations. I've seen some really wild results on strips when comparing, results I would not want to use to adjust chemicals in the pool because anything I did based on those results would not be right.

 

[guardwife2]

thanks for the advice/help....Im taking a sample to a pool store tmrw to see how off I am on readings. I will post when I have time. I will take a look at the test kit you have suggested and go from there. If you see a crazy woman on tv that has caused a COP show in her own neighbor hood in IL by ripping out a tree, pool and deck....it will be me

 

[guardwife2]

do I do any vacuuming during this period? and if so do I vacuum to waste or just continue to brush sides of pool?

Ps....I am adding two pics of my pool I took this morning. I do think I am seeing a change in appearance of the color of the water....what do you think?

and I am taking a pool sample to the pool place today..I will post results when I can.

 

[guardwife2]

UPDATED info on my pool/water test:

Ok, I just came back from the pool store and have the long awaited results of my pool water. Im going to tell you everything they told and what they suggested. I did not buy one product b/c I wanted to see what you all had to say. Warning this will be a long post...bare with me.

Temp-80
Saturation index-2 (column next to it says is hould be -.3 to +.3....what does that mean?)
TDS-2200 (column next to this says it should be < 2500...I asked what this means and she said it was from all of the "junk" in the bleach I have been using...and by the way..I got chewed out for using Liquid bleach b/c of this)
CYA-could not test )they said the computer could not test it (column next to it says it should be 30-200)
Total Cl-8 (column next to it says it should be 1-3)
Free Cl-6.5 (Column next to it says it should be 1-3)
PH-8.8 (they said it is probably higher but 8.8 is the highest their computer can check/test..also column next to it says it should be 7.4-7.6)
Total Alk-387
Adj. Total Alk-387 (column next to it says it should be 125-225)
Total Hardness-306 (column next to it says it should be 175-225)
Optimezer+ 0 (column next to it says it should be 30-35...what is this?)
Copper-0
Iron-not tested (I asked why she said they dont test it unless they know we have hard water or rust in water...which we do)
Green Algae: it says Extensive
Quat-0 (column next to it says should be 4...what is this?)

so here is what the computer printed out for me on what to do:

It says, my saturation index is high. This indicates my total Alk, ph and or total hardness are out of balance. High saturation Index can cause cloudy water and scale build up and can damage the surface and equipment. to balance and correct this I need to follow these steps:

Step 1:
Total Alk I need to add 2lbs of lo n slo (their pool product) for 20 days. I need to add this directly to the pump. If the ph falls to or is already at the 7.2 do not add further treatments until the ph rises to atleast 7.4.

Also noted I need to add a Scale in hibitor b/c of the total hardness and or saturation indes being high.

step 2:

Add 3 bags of Oxyshee x 2 (another one of their products). It says I have combined chlorine, but your free chlorine is high. Oxysheen is being recommended so that additional chlorine product is not added to the pool.

Step 3:

Need to add 6 oz of Power floc to treat algae (another one of their products...which we already have..didn't work) . This is to help remove dead algae and debris before applying algae product. Supposed to add this to the pool with pump running and then circulate for 2 hours and turn off. Allow it to settle over night and then vacuum to waste. After vacuuming to waste I am to add 4 bags of Burn out 35....another one of their products.

Step 4:
Add 1 qt of Banish. This is an oxidizer. I am supposed to add this in the pool with pump running as well. Brush any undissovled product. Circulate one hour and then add banish directly to the pool. Circulate 24 hours. Then brush sides and bottom and vacuum to waste.

then it says after this I must use strip Kwik to clean dead algae from the filter. After completing the algae treatment, it is important to treat the filter to remove dead algea and oxidied materials.

Then I am to add 15lbs of Optimizer plus (anther one of their products) and 7.5lbs of Lo n slo (their product too) to soften the water and to maintain or adjust PH level.

then add 10oz of Back up (their product-algae inhibitor) to prevent algae growth from here on out.

goes on to say I am to maintain 1-3 ppm of clorine residual with silk tabs (we used these last yr..and they are very nice but expensive. They are pucks with chlorine in them) and then a maintence bag of oxidizer to shock weekly. there is more of preventive stuff for me to do/add...not going to list it all. but the "shopping" list they gave me consited of 11 products and some of them have x 2 or 3....

So now that we all know how fracked up my pool is....what to do I do? and where do I start? Also...I got chewed out for using chlorine..they said there is more "junk" in bleach and causing major problems for pools....so?????? HELP!!. Im hoping I can have patience during this product. Today is not good after getting these results and the shouting match at the pool place...and I do believe I am suffering from PMS. :/

 

[frogabog]

What a line of cr*p.

Bleach contains chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) and water. Which part is the junk?

How much money did you save by not buying all that they wanted to sell you? No more crying. You are a war hero now. You've just been pool stored and lived to tell the tale. Good for you!

No one here is getting paid to tell you not to buy stuff that you don't need for your pool. No one pays us to tell you to get a test kit either. We're here because it works. None of us has nothing better to do with our time but we come anyway.

How much money would they have made off of you selling you their "junkless" chemicals? (really? no junk in hundreds of dollars of strange chemicals you're to blindly dump into your pool?) They're very sure you need them, yet, they can't even measure CYA for you? Wow...

Take the money you saved today, get a kit. Keep the chlorine at shock level, run the filter, brush, and get some POP. We're here to help you if you're willing to chose to ignore the pool store and have a beautiful clear pool.

 

[supertune]

What a line of cr*p.

Bleach contains chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) and water. Which part is the junk?

How much money did you save by not buying all that they wanted to sell you? No more crying. You are a war hero now. You've just been pool stored and lived to tell the tale. Good for you!

No one here is getting paid NOT ME to tell you not to buy stuff that you don't need for your pool. No one pays us to tell you to get a test kit either. NOT ME AGAIN We're here because it works. None of us has nothing better to do with our time but we come anyway.

How much money would they have made off of you selling you their "junkless" chemicals? (really? no junk in hundreds of dollars of strange chemicals you're to blindly dump into your pool?) They're very sure you need them, yet, they can't even measure CYA for you? Wow...

Take the money you saved today, get a kit. Keep the chlorine at shock level, run the filter, brush, and get some POP. We're here to help you if you're willing to chose to ignore the pool store and have a beautiful clear pool.
BINGO! We just are good nature d and want the best for our fellow pool owners in trouble.

Just what I have been doing here, to help you. I'm not paid here.
(Just go and look at our posts)
Chuck

 

[guardwife2]

Just by looking at the prices today (which most of them are not listed)...take for instance the Burn out 35....the price for one bag was almost 10 dollars...they said I needed 4 bags...so that alone for one product was 40.00. I am betting (from purchasing things from them in the past) my cost just for Chemicals would be around 400.00. I was tempted to get some but I kept telling myself NO!!! I wanted to hear what you all had to say and then go from there. My question is should I just go from here and follow the advice given or should I try dumping more water out to get some of the levels down? My neighbor is a chemist and works at a Neuclar power plant....he had a pool and his water was ALWAYS crystal clear...BUT he knows what he is doing haa haa he said he could help me too and his methods were alot simpular than the pool store. Some of the things I listed above I had never heard of and dont understand either. lol The pool place told me it could take 20 or more days to get my pool cleared up by going by "their" list..ha! Seriously if it is going to take that long I might as well close it now...summer will be over with and the kids back in school. I know I need POP....just so frustrating. I feel some of this is my fault b/c prior to coming to the site we tried to clear it up on our own and I think caused more issues. Im afraid to add more Chlorine to it. Based on the readings and the calculator.it says to add 0..if I did it correctly. yes, I will reread tmrw..it is late here after 11pm...I have company coming from Colorado so im hoping tmrw over coffee I can reread. Thanks for being patience and having a good laugh with at the pool store.

 

[guardwife2]

oh ps:

per pool school:
TDS
Total Dissolved Solids

TDS measurements are not useful with swimming pools. Historically they were used as a proxy for CYA levels, before CYA testing became common. TDS measures total dissolved solids, when what you really need to know is which particular chemicals are present.

if this is true and mine was 2200 (ideal was <2500) why was this a big deal to them...this is when they told me it was from all of the "junk" from the bleach I added.

And more ?

what is saturation index? (mine was 2 says ideal is -.3- +.3)
Optimizer..what is that? (mine was 0 ideal says 30-35)
Quat: what is it? (mine says not tested ideal says 4)


thanks...

 

[kvmommy]

Just so you know I've been there. Last year I opened my pool to an almost black swamp. Its was my first time ever doing anything with a pool as we had bought the house and immediately closed the pool. So, I went to the pool store and I bought $100's of chemicals they recommended. And they said to throw in a bag of shock a night and after about 15 minutess I should test the pool and if it was darkish purple on my strips I was good to go. Fast forward about 3 weeks and more money later, my pool was now a dark green swamp instead of black. I found this site, and after reading a bit I waited about 30 minutes after shocking my pool and my strips came up with chlorine at 0. It was eaten up so fast. So then I preceded to shock the Darn out of my pool til I could maintian my chlorine levels over night. In 2 days my pool was blue but cloudy. 2 days after that we were swimming. I couldn't believe it and TFP is my bible. Good luck getting yours clean. BTW I was sick and ignored my pool for a week and its totally opaque right now...sooooo i'm back to shocking the Darn out of it.

 

[linen]

First, let me say, as I think you have found out, the pool store trip was a waste of time other then for yours and our entertainment. So we really can't draw any conclusions from their numbers.

You really will benefit from the FAS-DPD chlorine test that has been suggested, since you need to test FC and CC frequently during the shocking process to be effective.

if this is true and mine was 2200 (ideal was <2500) why was this a big deal to them...this is when they told me it was from all of the "junk" from the bleach I added.

They tell you this because they have other forms of chlorine they want to sell you like the ludicrous "silk tabs" that they will make money on (and not the grocery store).

what is saturation index? (mine was 2 says ideal is -.3- +.3)

Don't worry about that for now. Pool calculator calculates this (or something similar) called CSI.

Optimizer..what is that? (mine was 0 ideal says 30-35)

I think that is borates, ignore for now.

Quat: what is it? (mine says not tested ideal says 4)

That is algaecide, ignore for now.

 

[chem geek]

BioGuard® Burn Out® 35 is lithium hypochlorite which is the most expensive chlorine available for use in pools. It at least doesn't add anything you don't want into the pool (i.e. it doesn't raise Cyanuric Acid or Calcium Hardness), but it's about 5 times (or more) expensive than chlorinating liquid or bleach (which are both sodium hypochlorite) and still adds the same amount of salt (not that this is any problem, but it just shows they are lying when they say bad things about chlorinating liquid or bleach). Some pool stores, like the one I use, sell chlorinating liquid which is just a more concentrated version of bleach. The store you are going to apparently does not so they bad mouth what they do not sell.

 

[Stickler]

That is exactly what my water looks like after a 10 gallon influx of liquid chlorine. Free chlorine was 0 the next day.

 

[guardwife2]

very frustrating isn't it? We got about 2 inches of rain here last night...Praise God for that..we are in such a drought here in IL. But this morning my water is even lighter and the smell of Chlorine is strong. Im not bothered by that at all. Ill take a new pic and post it. I am going to order the test mention for chlorine. so I keep doing the 6 way test for now till I get it. My neighbor, who is the chemist, said to add Mutriac Acid to bring down the PH. Is that ok to add? that is about the only thing I know to do besides dumping water to get the ph down. I will get working on the chlroine levels and algae. too. Got a busy day ahead of me. I have family coming in from Colorado so I have to prepare for them and also help my mom out and pick up a kid from out of town. so Hoping to get out there soon or later to get readings.

 

[guardwife2]

question concerning the following: and test results as of today.

Tested my pool with the test kit I have, I know your not a fan but till I get something else and order the one mentioned in comments I have to use it. So here we go:

CYA- I need clarity of what they mean when they say "slowly drop water in till black dot can not been seen" now does this mean it turns a grey color, white color or you just can't see it period? I added drops in till I hit the 30 mark and it was a dark gray color....I couldn't go anymore b/c 1-I was out of water in the tube and 2- there was no more room for me to add more. So if I did this right CYA is 30?

Alk-the other day when I did this test it turned a BRIGHT hot pink...today it was a dull pink but it never got red as the directions said it will...what does that mean? Does red mean high, normal or low? anyhoo...I added 40 drops to the test to get it to a dull pink so per the instructions so it would be 400ppm. that's high right?

Total hardness: after 5 drops it was purple...not red....but after adding the second part to the test it did turn a light pretty blue...so per the test instructions that would be 400.

PH was still high...it read btwn 7.8 and 8.2 (highest on test tube)

CL was really low...the other day it was 5 or higher today it was barely .5.

so I will get more bleach and Muriadic acid to lower the ph and bring the cl back up. im still learning so bare with me....any suggestion or comments would be great.

 

[supertune]

question concerning the following: and test results as of today.

Tested my pool with the test kit I have, I know your not a fan but till I get something else and order the one mentioned in comments I have to use it. So here we go:

CYA- I need clarity of what they mean when they say "slowly drop water in till black dot can not been seen" now does this mean it turns a grey color, white color or you just can't see it period? I added drops in till I hit the 30 mark and it was a dark gray color....I couldn't go anymore b/c 1-I was out of water in the tube and 2- there was no more room for me to add more. So if I did this right CYA is 30?

Alk-the other day when I did this test it turned a BRIGHT hot pink...today it was a dull pink but it never got red as the directions said it will...what does that mean? Does red mean high, normal or low? anyhoo...I added 40 drops to the test to get it to a dull pink so per the instructions so it would be 400ppm. that's high right?

Total hardness: after 5 drops it was purple...not red....but after adding the second part to the test it did turn a light pretty blue...so per the test instructions that would be 400.

PH was still high...it read btwn 7.8 and 8.2 (highest on test tube)

CL was really low...the other day it was 5 or higher today it was barely .5.

so I will get more bleach and Muriadic acid to lower the ph and bring the cl back up. im still learning so bare with me....any suggestion or comments would be great.

If the chlorine is that low, 10ppm and under (you posted 5) this is when you can adjust pH. Target 7.2 with the pool calculator.
This should always be done before you start the shocking process.
Have you used a leaf net a lot on the bottom and make sure you have as much solids out of the water as possible. Any solids in the water WILL USE ALL YOUR CHLORINE UP and fast.
#1 problem, is NOT having the FAS-DPD chlorine test.
#2 problem, If you keep falling below your shock chlorine/CYA value, the longer this will take, even using the std. kit your not even keeping it over 10ppm with a dilution method.
Because of the way your doing this, it will be more costly as you'll use more bleach and take forever.
Forget about TA and CH for now, don't waste any time, reagents and brain thought on them... they can be addressed after you clear this pool!

Chuck

 

[guardwife2]

Chuck,

(CL was really low...the other day it was 5 or higher today it was barely .5.) Yes, the OTHER day it was 5, this morning it was .5 so extremely low. As for the debris..anything is possible and I can check for sure. I did just get in like two days ago and spent over an hour vacuuming and then went around the pool with my feet to feel if there was anything and I couldn't feel anything...a few leaves and a few bugs came up...that is all. I think right now I will definitely get the PH down..it is way way way too high. Then work on the chlorine/shock method. Ill post what happens......

thanks