Bullfrog M8 maintenance

[Radiochemista]

Long time lurker, first time poster- my pool is a well oiled (chlorinated? salted?) machine, all thanks to TFP!

We have the Bullfrog M8 hot tub with ozone generator since May 2022- we love it! We use the tub once a day, twice sometimes.

I change the chlorine cartridge and filter every 4 weeks, as per manufacturer recommendations. I used to set the chlorine cartridge to "2 holes" but even with "1 hole" showing, I run out of chlorine within 3 weeks. With the ozone generator, I did not expect to use up so much chlorine! I have dichlor granules and 10% bleach, so I end up using those to make up the chlorine level. Is this to be expected? If I don't stay on top of it, water gets cloudy quickly, and I had bad algae twice- it took a week each time to get rid of it.

Also- the installer recommended I use SpaGuard Spa Shock-Oxidizer (potassium preroxymonosulfate)- 2 caps once a month. But every time I use it, the tub gets very foamy (even if my levels are spot on). I stopped using it for that reason- is that advisable?

All help is much appreciated

 

[Mdragger88]

The ozone continuously oxidizes & does so with your fc once the bather waste has been dealt with. If possible, turn it off shortly after use to prevent it from consuming your standby fc. Ozone is only an oxidizer not a sanitizer.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

No matter what chlorination delivery method you choose you must adhere to the FC/CYA Levels at all times ensuring fc is above minimum for your cya lest nasties will grow at a rapid pace.

Mps (non chlorine shock) is only an oxidizer, not a sanitizer. Chlorine is both when used in adequate amounts so there’s really no need for mps.
It sounds like it may be time to purge with Ahhsome ,drain, & refill.
Then follow this guide
How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
Especially if you didn’t do this upon first filling the tub. Even brand new tubs can have biofilms due to the fact they are wet tested at the factory & things grow in the plumbing while in transit to you. This leads to a higher fc demand from the beginning. If you are using the frog system it may be adding things to your water that you don’t need that can cause other issues along with the fact you are having to manually dose any way - it doesn’t seem worth the trouble or expense.

Alternative sanitizers and "chemical free" pools--The Truth!

Pool owners frequently seek out "Chemical Free" alternatives to pool water sanitization. Many claims in favor of these systems and methods have been made (usually by the manufacturers of such systems) often without adequate scientific proof of their efficacy. Let's take a look at them and see...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Radiochemista]

The ozone continuously oxidizes & does so with your fc once the bather waste has been dealt with. If possible, turn it off shortly after use to prevent it from consuming your standby fc. Ozone is only an oxidizer not a sanitizer.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

No matter what chlorination delivery method you choose you must adhere to the FC/CYA Levels at all times ensuring fc is above minimum for your cya lest nasties will grow at a rapid pace.

Mps (non chlorine shock) is only an oxidizer, not a sanitizer. Chlorine is both when used in adequate amounts so there’s really no need for mps.
It sounds like it may be time to purge with Ahhsome ,drain, & refill.
Then follow this guide
How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
Especially if you didn’t do this upon first filling the tub. Even brand new tubs can have biofilms due to the fact they are wet tested at the factory & things grow in the plumbing while in transit to you. This leads to a higher fc demand from the beginning. If you are using the frog system it may be adding things to your water that you don’t need that can cause other issues along with the fact you are having to manually dose any way - it doesn’t seem worth the trouble or expense.

Alternative sanitizers and "chemical free" pools--The Truth!

Pool owners frequently seek out "Chemical Free" alternatives to pool water sanitization. Many claims in favor of these systems and methods have been made (usually by the manufacturers of such systems) often without adequate scientific proof of their efficacy. Let's take a look at them and see...

www.troublefreepool.com

Thank you! We purchased a tub that was already in order, so the ozone system was part of the package. No way to turn it off, unfortunately (at least it is not provided in the manual, but we can probably unplug it). I will continue ignoring MPS.

As for Ahhsome, I read about it on TFP, but unfortunately after my purchase. I just replaced my water a month ago- my next change is this winter. If the weather allows (I'm in NY), I can try Ahhsome then. Do you recommend I use it sooner?

I have been using Frog @ease cartridges for Bullfrog spas, as per manual. There is a mineral cartridge and a chlorine one (FROG® @ease® for Bullfrog Spas®, System Kit - Bullfrog Spas Official Parts & Accessories Store). The mineral lasts 4 months, and the chlorine is supposed to last 4 weeks. Are you saying I can stop using them if I am manually dosing? They insert into the filter housing, so not sure what happens if I leave those out and just insert the filter.

 

[Cousinvinny]

I have been using Frog @ease cartridges for Bullfrog spas, as per manual. There is a mineral cartridge and a chlorine one (FROG® @ease® for Bullfrog Spas®, System Kit - Bullfrog Spas Official Parts & Accessories Store). The mineral lasts 4 months, and the chlorine is supposed to last 4 weeks. Are you saying I can stop using them if I am manually dosing? They insert into the filter housing, so not sure what happens if I leave those out and just insert the filter.

Yes you can leave them out and start dosing manually with chlorine. Exactly what I did.

 

[Mdragger88]

Definitely ditch the mineral portion, maybe reserve the chlorine ones for if you’ll be away/ on vacation & need some standby chlorine.
If you’re experiencing high fc demand, persistent cc’s, & have had some cloudy/funky low fc water situations your best bet is to purge & start fresh. Now is better than the middle of winter anyway. Then that sets you up for a spring purge, drain, refill as well. I certainly prefer temperate weather when doing my purges. I generally go 6 months between purges/refills- right around pool closing in October then around pool opening in April. I’ve gone longer than that before but my tub never gets below minimum for my cya at any time & there were no persistent cc’s or demand issues.
If you’re needing a way to provide standby fc look into a drape over swg. I & several others here have a saltron mini to accomplish this. I still supplement with liquid chlorine/ dichlor for heavy bather loads.
Several here also have ControlOmatic units & are happy with them as well.

 

[Methuselah]

Also know that every time you throw dichlor into it you add cya, necessitating a higher fc level. And another monkey in the wrench, you dont know how much you have because algae can consume cya.

I suspect it best to post numbers from your TF-100 kit if you don't purge (however, I second the advice to purge and either ditch the frog system or reseach it because I suspect it's the root cause of your recurrent algae issues).

 

[Radiochemista]

Definitely ditch the mineral portion, maybe reserve the chlorine ones for if you’ll be away/ on vacation & need some standby chlorine.
If you’re experiencing high fc demand, persistent cc’s, & have had some cloudy/funky low fc water situations your best bet is to purge & start fresh. Now is better than the middle of winter anyway. Then that sets you up for a spring purge, drain, refill as well. I certainly prefer temperate weather when doing my purges. I generally go 6 months between purges/refills- right around pool closing in October then around pool opening in April. I’ve gone longer than that before but my tub never gets below minimum for my cya at any time & there were no persistent cc’s or demand issues.
If you’re needing a way to provide standby fc look into a drape over swg. I & several others here have a saltron mini to accomplish this. I still supplement with liquid chlorine/ dichlor for heavy bather loads.
Several here also have ControlOmatic units & are happy with them as well.

We asked the salesman specifically about SWG since we love it for the pool. He said it is not advisable since "it would be corrosive and reduce the life span of the spa" and that's why Bullfrog does not make them. I have to read the warranty very well to ensure it will not be voided.

I like the idea of changing the water every 6 months instead of 4. Do you treat with Ahhsome every time?

 

[Radiochemista]

Also know that every time you throw dichlor into it you add cya, necessitating a higher fc level. And another monkey in the wrench, you dont know how much you have because algae can consume cya.

I suspect it best to post numbers from your TF-100 kit if you don't purge (however, I second the advice to purge and either ditch the frog system or reseach it because I suspect it's the root cause of your recurrent algae issues).

Of course I did not know that dichlor has CYA... rookie mistake. So now it is high. I plan to treat with Ahhsome next weekend and replace water so that will solve my high CYA levels. Hoping to do better going forward! Thanks

 

[Mdragger88]

We asked the salesman specifically about SWG since we love it for the pool. He said it is not advisable since "it would be corrosive and reduce the life span of the spa" and that's why Bullfrog does not make them. I have to read the warranty very well to ensure it will not be voided.

I like the idea of changing the water every 6 months instead of 4. Do you treat with Ahhsome every time?

That may or may not be true depending upon the makeup of the heater - cupro nickel heaters can have corrosion issues. Ph is generally more of a factor for corrosion than the low salt levels required for a swg.
My spa is kind of a cheap one & likely has a cupronickel heater but I decided it’s worth the risk & will replace the heater with a better stainless one if it dies. @phonedave has a bull frog perhaps he has some insight on the component makeup.
Yes, I purge with Ahhsome before every drain/refill.
I also use their aqua clarity product weekly (basically watered down ahhsome) & my last purge produced basically zero detritus. My spa only has 1 filter & I have a grubby hubby so I need the extra muscle when it comes to grime eradication.

 

[JoeSelf]

I purged with Ahhsome when new and got a whole lot of stuff. Continually wiped up for two jets runs with a little time between. Listen to MD she knows her stuff. Helps me out all the time. I am using the AquaClarity also. I just purged last weekend and had a little bit come out. It just hung out in one spot and I wiped it up thru the jet runs. Only appeared in this spot where it collected. But I did wipe down the entire water line, just in case.

IMG_20220629_142812_01.jpg

• JoeSelf
• Jul 1, 2022

 

[phonedave]

That may or may not be true depending upon the makeup of the heater - cupro nickel heaters can have corrosion issues. Ph is generally more of a factor for corrosion than the low salt levels required for a swg.
My spa is kind of a cheap one & likely has a cupronickel heater but I decided it’s worth the risk & will replace the heater with a better stainless one if it dies. @phonedave has a bull frog perhaps he has some insight on the component makeup.
Yes, I purge with Ahhsome before every drain/refill.
I also use their aqua clarity product weekly (basically watered down ahhsome) & my last purge produced basically zero detritus. My spa only has 1 filter & I have a grubby hubby so I need the extra muscle when it comes to grime eradication.

Bullfrog (like most spa manufacturers) is pretty cagey about what it uses. Bullfrog does use a Balboa M7 spa pack and heater, and according to Balboa you can get that heater with either a Incoloy or Titanium option, so that means to me it is not cupro nickle.

 

[Methuselah]

We asked the salesman specifically about SWG since we love it for the pool. He said it is not advisable since "it would be corrosive and reduce the life span of the spa" and that's why Bullfrog does not make them. I have to read the warranty very well to ensure it will not be voided.

I like the idea of changing the water every 6 months instead of 4. Do you treat with Ahhsome every time?

I believe @JoyfulNoise recently provided a rather decently supported opine that 2 months should be it for water changes. Mine went six, but I believe it was at the 2 month mark I started having to fight it. You MIGHT go six months instead of four, and purging with AhhSome! would probably be a big help in that regard. However, as pointed out regularly here, bather load is immense compared to a pool and even without incidents where fc is never allowed to drop past computed minimum, filter(/s) are cleaned regularly, filter cycle is adequate, cc is allowed fresh air to alleviate, and regularly wiping down the water line, your water simply might not remain clear enough to go six months.

Ya gotta kinda just do your best and see how it goes. Too many variables to know or get expectations before the cart...

 

[duraleigh]

12 posts in this thread and no one appears interested in test results. Testing on a VERY regular basis will go a long way towards understanding the current state of your water and what you can do to manage it properly

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Spa heaters come in either Teflon coated steel (cheapest option), Incoloy (most common option), or titanium (most expensive option). Titanium will be mostly unaffected by chemicals used in the spa, pH, or salt. Incoloy is a “corrosion resistant” steel alloy that has very good chemical resistance but will eventually corrode and fail. Salt will increase the rate of corrosion. Teflon coated steel can resist salt and chemicals but the Teflon coating will eventually crack and fail and once that happens the heater element will rot away very quickly.

Since most spa manufacturers use the absolute cheapest components possible, salt water is rarely an option they’ll support as it will cause more warranty claims. If you wish to go with salt and a drape over SWG, then I would suggest upgrading the heater to titanium and then just assume that your warranty is worthless.

 

[phonedave]

Spa heaters come in either Teflon coated steel (cheapest option), Incoloy (most common option), or titanium (most expensive option). Titanium will be mostly unaffected by chemicals used in the spa, pH, or salt. Incoloy is a “corrosion resistant” steel alloy that has very good chemical resistance but will eventually corrode and fail. Salt will increase the rate of corrosion. Teflon coated steel can resist salt and chemicals but the Teflon coating will eventually crack and fail and once that happens the heater element will rot away very quickly.

Since most spa manufacturers use the absolute cheapest components possible, salt water is rarely an option they’ll support as it will cause more warranty claims. If you wish to go with salt and a drape over SWG, then I would suggest upgrading the heater to titanium and then just assume that your warranty is worthless.

It has also been my experience that the vast majority of warranties are not worth the paper they are printed on. There is usually some sort of "escape clause" in there. You didn't have your tub serviced by a qualified technician every 6 months - denied, you wanted a new replacement part - sorry you get a repair or a certified like new replacement. Here are some Bullfrog specific exclusions that void your warranty- "The spa has been subject to alteration, neglect, misuse, or abuse" - that is so vague that they could likely deny almost every claim. "Damage is cause by the addition or use of any non-approved mechanical or electrical component, or chemical substance" - no bleach, HCL, or likely baking soda, borax, or boric acid for you. "Damage is caused by shipping, moving, mishandling, improper installation, or electrical hook up by someone other than Bullfrog" - this one is a doozy. Friends of mine got a brand new A8. The truck delivering it from Bullfrog to the Dealer got in an accident and they have a cracked skirt on their tub. Bullfrog has stated it is not their problem. The Dealer is saying "Bullfrog, it is your shipper, it was damaged before it got here" Bullfrog is saying their responsibility ends the moment it leaves their factory and the damage is due to a shipper other than Bullfrog. My friends have had a brand new $17,000 or so hot tub that was delivered damaged over 3 months ago, and they are still waiting for the dealer and Bullfrog to figure out whos' fault it is.

So yeah, don't worry about preserving your warranty by not using salt. Use the salt, and when you heater dies, you can buy a new one for $300 or less, and swap it out during a water change.

Bullfrog 65-2020 Spa Heater 4 kW M7 Balboa with Sensors

Bullfrog Spa 65-2020 Spa Heater rated at 4 kW operating at 230v is M7 Balboa style with Sensors

www.hottuboutpost.com

 

[Radiochemista]

12 posts in this thread and no one appears interested in test results. Testing on a VERY regular basis will go a long way towards understanding the current state of your water and what you can do to manage it properly

I would do a quick check with test strips very often, but my most recent complete test was this:
FC: 1.6
CC: 3
pH- 7.6
TA-80
CH-150

Now, I just learned that there's CYA in the dichlor... so tested it for the first time this weekend and it is... very high. I will drain the water next weekend, and hope to do better next time. I think I will have to step up my testing frequency too- at least until I reach a good rhythm. Thank you!

 

[Mdragger88]

What is your cya?

 

[Radiochemista]

It has also been my experience that the vast majority of warranties are not worth the paper they are printed on. There is usually some sort of "escape clause" in there. You didn't have your tub serviced by a qualified technician every 6 months - denied, you wanted a new replacement part - sorry you get a repair or a certified like new replacement. Here are some Bullfrog specific exclusions that void your warranty- "The spa has been subject to alteration, neglect, misuse, or abuse" - that is so vague that they could likely deny almost every claim. "Damage is cause by the addition or use of any non-approved mechanical or electrical component, or chemical substance" - no bleach, HCL, or likely baking soda, borax, or boric acid for you. "Damage is caused by shipping, moving, mishandling, improper installation, or electrical hook up by someone other than Bullfrog" - this one is a doozy. Friends of mine got a brand new A8. The truck delivering it from Bullfrog to the Dealer got in an accident and they have a cracked skirt on their tub. Bullfrog has stated it is not their problem. The Dealer is saying "Bullfrog, it is your shipper, it was damaged before it got here" Bullfrog is saying their responsibility ends the moment it leaves their factory and the damage is due to a shipper other than Bullfrog. My friends have had a brand new $17,000 or so hot tub that was delivered damaged over 3 months ago, and they are still waiting for the dealer and Bullfrog to figure out whos' fault it is.

So yeah, don't worry about preserving your warranty by not using salt. Use the salt, and when you heater dies, you can buy a new one for $300 or less, and swap it out during a water change.

Bullfrog 65-2020 Spa Heater 4 kW M7 Balboa with Sensors

Bullfrog Spa 65-2020 Spa Heater rated at 4 kW operating at 230v is M7 Balboa style with Sensors

www.hottuboutpost.com

The warranty is disappointing, but not shocking. I feel sorry for your friend- that's a real bummer.

I might hold off on SWG and try to use the ozone generator to my advantage since I have the circulating pump. Should I aim for FC of 4-6 with CYA 30, even with ozone? Seems like ozone will just eat the FC, so would a lower level be better?

 

[Radiochemista]

What is your cya?

Off the scale 100+

 

[Methuselah]

You might want to read the sticky on how to use chlorine at the top of the threads list