Borax treatment

At which points within your chlorination cycle are you measuring your pH and are comparing measurements with each other? We say that adding bleach has no net effect on pH. That means that chlorinating with bleach is pH-neutral over the whole chlorination cycle. Adding bleach will increase pH, the following usage of chlorine (by UV-decay and FC killing bacteria and algae and oxidizing stuff) will reduce the pH again more or less to where you started (ignoring other effects on pH). If you are now comparing a pH-measurement that was done just before a bleach addition with a measurement that was done just after a bleach addition, you might see a change in pH that is not actually a real pH-drift, that value will come down again once the chlorine has been used up.

Here an example calculation (using chem geeks poolequations spreadsheet, which is pretty accurate) with TA=50 and CYA=60 (as you have posted in your other thread). Let's say you are at the min FC of 5ppm for your CYA and pH is 7.7. You now add enough bleach to bring your chlorine to the upper end of your target range (FC=9ppm). This will increase your pH temporarily to 8.11. The following usage of 4ppm worth of chlorine (bringing FC down to where you started) will reduce pH back down to 7.71 - the whole cycle is more or less pH-neutral - of course, other effects that have happened in the meantime like CO2-outgassing will result in not getting back to where you started.

When working out your pH-drift due to CO2-outgassing, it is important to compare pH-measurements that have been done at the the same point within your chlorination cycle. If you are comparing pH-measurements at the bottom of your FC-range with pH-measurements at the top of the FC-range, you will see fluctuations that are not representative for the actual pH-drift.

That is the only explanation that I can come up with. I don't think that a pH-drift of 0.4 per day can be explained by aeration, esp. not with a TA of 50ppm. My pool has pH-drift that is usually below 0.04 per day.

Work out your pH-drift based on measurements from the same points within the chlorination cycle, and add less chlorine more often to minimize the fluctuations within the cycle. These fluctuations are more dominant at lower TA: At TA=80, the same addition of bleach as above will bring pH only up to 7.97. Low TA is good to reduce the drift due to CO2-outgassing, but you have to be aware that the fluctuations within the cycle will be higher. That's why it is not recommended to go below a TA of 50ppm.
Thanks for that. I decided to stop daily muriatic acid to lower my PH to 7.2 for the last few days. The result of that experiment was that my PH has stayed at 7.6 or today at 7.3.

I also have not added Chlorinating liquid for the past two days as my CH was 8 yesterday and is now 7 today. I guess the cloudy/cooler weather slows the need for Chlorine??

I will monitor the TA and make effort to keep it around 75. If I read what was posted earlier, muriatic acid can affect TA?? Is that correct?

Thanks for the info!
 
Thanks for that. I decided to stop daily muriatic acid to lower my PH to 7.2 for the last few days. The result of that experiment was that my PH has stayed at 7.6 or today at 7.3.
It's not generally advised to target a pH of 7.2. At a TA of 50, you should find the pH to be fairly stable if you don't try and target such a low pH. Generally I don't add acid till it hits 8, and when I do, I target 7.6 with the acid addition.

The only time I target a lower pH is if my TA is very high (my fill water is over 300 ppm) and I specifically want to lower TA to slow the daily pH rise.

I also have not added Chlorinating liquid for the past two days as my CH was 8 yesterday and is now 7 today. I guess the cloudy/cooler weather slows the need for Chlorine??
CH meaning chlorine? Note that abbreviation could be a point of confusion, in the pool world CH is used to abbreviate the Calcium Hardness test. For chlorine we use FC (Free Chlorine) or CC (Combined Chlorine). Outside of TFP you'll also see TC (Total Chlorine), but we don't use that on TFP because it's just FC + CC and with the recommended test kits we have you get direct readings of FC and CC so TC is pointless.

Yes, both cloudy and cooler weather will slow chlorine usage. The UV in sunlight breaks down FC, and FC naturally degrades over time, with this degradation speeding up with heat.

I will monitor the TA and make effort to keep it around 75. If I read what was posted earlier, muriatic acid can affect TA?? Is that correct?
Yes, MA (Muriatic Acid) lowers both TA and pH. Do you use PoolMath? It's got one section to tell you how much acid to lower pH by X amount when TA is Y, and another section that you can enter the amount of acid and see how much affect it will have on pH and TA. I use the app, but there's also a web-based version, link at bottom of any page. PoolMath - Trouble Free Pool
 
It's not generally advised to target a pH of 7.2.
I am not sure about that. TFP guidelines find a pH of 7.2 perfectly acceptable. The implication in that statement is that 7.2 is outside of our ranges We suggest and it is not.

I think I understand what you are saying but that thought needs to be expanded. A pH of 7.2 is safely within TFP guidelines
 
I used to have to acid clean my salt cell a lot due to deposits until I added Borax to the pool. Since adding Borax I almost never have to use acid. Just check and put it back. I don’t know if it’s coincidental. We have very hard water here if this info means anything.
 
I am not sure about that. TFP guidelines find a pH of 7.2 perfectly acceptable. The implication in that statement is that 7.2 is outside of our ranges We suggest and it is not.

I think I understand what you are saying but that thought needs to be expanded. A pH of 7.2 is safely within TFP guidelines
Yes, sorry. "not generally advised" is a poor choice of words. What I meant is if your TA is already low (<100), especially when approaching a TA of 50 that targeting a pH of 7.2 may find you adding acid and/or driving the TA below 50 whereas if you didn't touch it it may sit happily at a pH of 7.8 or so for weeks on end with zero acid additions, In other words, you generally have to mess with it less if you let it hang out near the upper end of the pH as opposed to constantly trying to keep it at the low end of the range.

It just caught my eye when the OP stated they were adding acid every day to target a pH of 7.2. I guess what I should have asked is what the pH was every day before they added acid. If the pH was 7.4 for example, then adding acid is just extra work since at those pH levels the pH rise should be pretty darn slow at near 7.8-7.9.

There's nothing unsafe about running a pH of 7.2, that is for certain.

Does that help expand the thought a bit?
 
This is great stuff. As a newbie I believe I was creating work and not necessarily a problem, yet. I am still not a chemist and trying to put those TA and PH and FC usage and CYA relationships together. Looks like I have a better understanding about the TA and PH now and MAybe next year I will totally get the CYA/FC love and master it! I sure am glad I dug deeper into finding a PH solution. Seems like I saved both time and money learning that the "borax" solution is not necessarily a solution if the TA/PH relationship is a good one and understanding more how they flow with each other/

Thanks to all who chipped in!
 
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