Borates

[jallison86]

Hello, I'm looking for some input on adding borates to my pool. I've read the So You Want to Add Borates to your Pool - Why and How article (which is awesome, btw, very detailed). But I'm still a bit nervous about dumping a sh*load of borax and Muriatic acid into the pool. Who's done this? How'd it go?

Thanks!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Use boric acid instead. It’s way easier to add borates that way as it is a weak acid and doesn’t change pH much. I have used borates in my pool for years and I am a firm believer that they should be a required chemical addition for anyone with high pH water and an SWG.

The borax/acid method is a very old way of doing it before people had easy access to chemicals online. In the old days (circa 2000 … I know, ancient, right?) You could only easily get 20 Mule Team borax and MA. But nowadays, boric acid can easily be purchased online at vendors like Duda Diesel and others. It’s much easier to use.

 

[jallison86]

Use boric acid instead. It’s way easier to add borates that way as it is a weak acid and doesn’t change pH much. I have used borates in my pool for years and I am a firm believer that they should be a required chemical addition for anyone with high pH water and an SWG.

The borax/acid method is a very old way of doing it before people had easy access to chemicals online. In the old days (circa 2000 … I know, ancient, right?) You could only easily get 20 Mule Team borax and MA. But nowadays, boric acid can easily be purchased online at vendors like Duda Diesel and others. It’s much easier to use.

Thanks Matt, good info. "high pH water and an SWG" is my exact situation.

 

[jokerfive]

FYI I think Bioguard swapped their formulas for Optimizer and Optimizer Plus. I just bought a leftover Optimizer Plus pail — the store told me it was being discontinued and Optimizer would be it going forward. I felt lucky, until I saw it was Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate. So Borax on steroids, and I still have to mess with muriatic when I add it.

And new mentions of Optimizer say it’s ph balanced, so I’m wondering if they updated the formulas.

I’ll be just going straight bulk boric acid going forward, like others mentioned before.

 

[mgtfp]

And new mentions of Optimizer say it’s ph balanced, so I’m wondering if they updated the formulas.

I know that there are products like Zodiac Refresh in Australia that are a mixture of Boric Acid and Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate, I assume to be more pH neural.

I think the boric path is still the easiest to add borates. It lowers pH a bit, and once pH is back where it was before through CO2 outgassing, all water parameters are as they were before apart from borates being increased.

I played a bit with Chem Geek's spreadsheet. After adding this mixture of Boric Acid and STP in the Zodiac product, pH rises a bit and also TA, and you still seem to have to add some muriatic acid to get pH down to where pure boric acid would have gotten you in the first place to get TA back down to where it was before. But that doesn't have to be done immediately, normal pH management will deal with that eventually. Just saying that pure boric acid is more straightforward and presumably also much cheaper.

Bioguard Optimiser in Australia still seems to be 100% Boric Acid. Interesting that Bioguard Optimizer in the US seems to differ not just in the spelling...

 

[justincinmd]

I converted recently and it made a massive difference. I had very rapid pH rise before because of a large water feature, a spillover spa, and an SWG. The pH rise was fast enough that I only ever used the water feature on special occasions. I have it on 24x7 now, which I strongly prefer, and pH rises at maybe 25% of the speed it did before the boric acid.

The one thing that's still mildly concerning is managing alkalinity now that the pool needs acid less often. My fill water is hard, I have some splash out from the water features, and I'm in Florida while it hasn't rained much this year. It's not been a real problem yet, but I could see turning into one. If you don't have alkalinity challenges, I'd definitely add boric acid.

 

[Cowbell]

Where is everyone getting their boric acid from? I used to order from Duda but prices have skyrocketed...

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Duda.

Prices have skyrocketed everywhere.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Duda.

Prices have skyrocketed everywhere.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that one of the benefits was it made the water smell better. It's not on your thread as a Pro though, not sure where I saw that. I am trying to get rid of/cover up an organic smell from my well filled spa, would boric acid help or does only the 20 mule borax make the water smell better?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that one of the benefits was it made the water smell better. It's not on your thread as a Pro though, not sure where I saw that. I am trying to get rid of/cover up an organic smell from my well filled spa, would boric acid help or does only the 20 mule borax make the water smell better?

Neither would.

What is the “organic smell”? Rotten egg smell?

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Neither would.

What is the “organic smell”? Rotten egg smell?

No, it's not really a BAD smell, it just doesnt smell like bromine. I know that if I fill a glass of water from my well and then let it sit at room temperature it has an earthy (aka dirt) smell to it. I assume what I am smelling is a combination of bromine and the earthy smell. I know how bromine treated water should smell as my spa came from another house i had with city water.

I thought I read somewhere that borates made the pool smell better, i guess I am mistaken.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If the water is from a well and it has an “earthy” smell it is likely humic and fulvic acids (complex organic acids) that come from the decay and breakdown of organic materials (compost). It’s indicative of shallow wells or a well that might have a compromised well casing.

Have you had the well water tested by an independent lab?

Was the condition of the well certified when you bought the home?

 

[swimspaguyy11]

If the water is from a well and it has an “earthy” smell it is likely humic and fulvic acids (complex organic acids) that come from the decay and breakdown of organic materials (compost). It’s indicative of shallow wells or a well that might have a compromised well casing.

Have you had the well water tested by an independent lab?

Was the condition of the well certified when you bought the home?

my state (NJ) requires a test of the well water which was performed, but it's not very helpful. They are more looking for contaminates, my water failed a new test for PFAS and the seller had to install some big resin $7k tanks (with a big blue 20 inch pre and post filter) to remove it (at the cost of the tax payer, it was reimbursed by the state). However, they dont test for humic and fulvic and didnt even test for sediment and sand.

I added 2 outdoor hose bibs that bypass their system (so i am not wasting the filtration to wash my car, etc and to avoid the pressure/flow restriction) and boy is it bad. I got tons of sediment in my spa. (See picture, that is just from running t he spigot into a bucket for 3 seconds after sitting). Unfortunately none of that was caught. I am sure I should have had a well company come out and test the well but there are so many things to check when you buy a house you cant possibly get every inspection possible done. Like I paid an extra $800 for a full septic test but did not test the well, i assumed the water test was sufficient.

I don't know if I just need a twist and clean filter (or spin down filter) or I need to have a well pro come out and check the well itself. I've been trying to find someone who does both water treatment AND well maintenance. my fear is that if I get a well company they are going to recommend a new well or some major work to my well when maybe all I need is the twist and clean filter.

No idea if the sediment is part of the smell issue, but I wouldnt be surprised.

I dont think my well is shallow but I guess it's possible, my neighbor across the street is 150ft deep, I would imagine mine is similar since it's a development built at the same time. I am in a rocky mountainside (a small mountainside lol, it's northern nj after all lol) though so it might just be the conditions of the area..

I've attached my well report, maybe something helpful there... I guess I need to find a company who tests for humic and fulvic?

Thanks for your help!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I would take water samples and send them out for testing yourself. There are national testing labs where you can specify what you want tested. You can typically call them and tell them what the problem is and they can recommend tests.

The concern that I would have about your well is not so much the depth down to the pump (150ft or so) but if the well casing is cracked up at a higher level and thus allowing sediment and organics into the well which the pump will eventually drag up and send into your home. You need to see if you can find a reputable well service company with lots of years of experience to come and evaluate it. It may cost a good bit of money to get a well inspected, especially if they use a bore hole camera to visually inspect the casing, but it could be worth it.

Honestly, PFOS at those levels is the least of your worries and, honestly again, people have been exposed to PFOS compounds since McDonalds has been in business (most of their French fry containers and sandwich wrappings contain PFOS to keep all the yummy fryer grease in ...). PFOS is not causing your smell issues, it's something else. And now you have a very expensive well water filtration system which isn't actually fixing the problem, just masking it. I'd be more interested in fixing the problem and then not needing the fancy filtration ...

... but what do I know. I grew up drinking Long Island aquifer water that had no filtration whatsoever and, many years later, it was determined that the fuel oil depot 3 miles away from our home had been leaking small amounts of fuel oil and gasoline products into the ground for decades .... probably explains that weird eyeball in the back of my head that's always so itchy ...