Bizarre RJ30 behavior
- Thread starter Fuldo
- Start date
Sorry, I somehow posted the images without any text
My RJ30 seems to be running two different cycles; one then the other the next day then back to the first and so on. The bottom image shows a cycle that would be expected and the other what I call a "disrupted" cycle. The images show power to the pump and SWG, the raised power is when the generator is active and the lower when it's not. It's set to 65% and the power is one for 6 hours. In the normal cycle the second period can be seen starting at 3 hours and looks like the first period. In the disrupted cycle the generator stops prematurely about an hour after it comes on then restarts and does a normal "on" period. This is exactly how it would look if the power was removed and reapplied after 4 hours of pump operation. The amazing thing is this "glitch" repeats every two days at the same time, about 2:00 PM. The end result is that the generator is active more than expected so chlorine production is higher than expected every other day. I was wondering if there's some sort off recurring power glitch but nothing else in the home every resets.
Anyone have any thoughts and ideas about this? I wonder if this could somehow be the controller and maybe I'm not the only one being affected. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it if I didn't have my CURB energy monitoring system and use it to track pump and SWF operation.
My RJ30 seems to be running two different cycles; one then the other the next day then back to the first and so on. The bottom image shows a cycle that would be expected and the other what I call a "disrupted" cycle. The images show power to the pump and SWG, the raised power is when the generator is active and the lower when it's not. It's set to 65% and the power is one for 6 hours. In the normal cycle the second period can be seen starting at 3 hours and looks like the first period. In the disrupted cycle the generator stops prematurely about an hour after it comes on then restarts and does a normal "on" period. This is exactly how it would look if the power was removed and reapplied after 4 hours of pump operation. The amazing thing is this "glitch" repeats every two days at the same time, about 2:00 PM. The end result is that the generator is active more than expected so chlorine production is higher than expected every other day. I was wondering if there's some sort off recurring power glitch but nothing else in the home every resets.
Anyone have any thoughts and ideas about this? I wonder if this could somehow be the controller and maybe I'm not the only one being affected. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it if I didn't have my CURB energy monitoring system and use it to track pump and SWF operation.
Hootz
Bronze Supporter
- Feb 5, 2018
- 374
- Pool Size
- 24000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I am reading your post with interest but do not have an answer. The bottom graph is what I would expect to see. It is understood that the RJ series has a 180 minute cycle time so it would generate to 65% of that time (about 117 minutes) and then off (agrees with your bottom chart). I don't know of many members here that monitor power usage so closely so response may be limited.
It is an interesting issue, but if the problem is repeatable and happens at a regular time, then I would try to watch it and see exactly what’s happening. See if the power to you’re RJ-30 cuts out or if you get any weird messages on the screen. It certainly seems unusual, but I’m not sure anyone is going to be able to diagnose it just from an energy graph.
I agree that watching the controller and pump at the time this happens may be the only way to get a handle on this. On the other hand, unless the pump is affected and I suspect it isn't, then the actual cause still won't be known. I can also try to change the pump schedule to a different time of the day just to see it there's something weird happening about 2:00 every other day. I may also contact the power company to see if there's anything being done in the background at that time. We signed-up for an optional service years ago where the power company adds a special switch on the furnace/AC feed they can use to restrict our use during high demand periods. I'm wondering if maybe they "ping" that system to check compliance and maybe that signal somehow affects the controller.
Besides trying to get suggestions regarding my problem, part of the reason I posted was to alert other owners that this can happen and might be happening to them as well. This is a huge downside to having a long SWG cycle time. Overall output from a system with a much shorter cycle time like the Pentair system would hardly be affected.
Besides trying to get suggestions regarding my problem, part of the reason I posted was to alert other owners that this can happen and might be happening to them as well. This is a huge downside to having a long SWG cycle time. Overall output from a system with a much shorter cycle time like the Pentair system would hardly be affected.
An update for those who might be interested:
The power company, FPL, visited and ran some rudimentary tests and claimed all is well one their end.
I increased the SWG setting to 75% with the pump running the same 6 hour period from 10 AM to 4 PM. This was to increase output to meet the increased demand caused by the sunniest and hottest period of the year. Since then the "glitches" have been more numerous and now rather random. Before there was a glitch every other day at the same time of day. Now glitches occur most days and sometimes more than one during a single pump cycle. The end result is that the output is higher than expected because each glitch resets the controller to start another cycle. I guess that's better than the SWG dropping-out unexpectedly and generating less than expected. It's still not clear what's causing the problem but I'm suspecting it may be the controller overheating and resetting itself. Perhaps the cooling fan isn't running properly or perhaps it's primarily the days being very hot lately. I definitely didn't have such a problem last year. At this point probably the only way to get a handle on the problem is to start swapping parts or the entire controller but that seems extreme. I'll continue to monitor performance as the weather gets cooler and see if that impacts the frequency of the problem. If it does, that points toward an overheating problem.
The power company, FPL, visited and ran some rudimentary tests and claimed all is well one their end.
I increased the SWG setting to 75% with the pump running the same 6 hour period from 10 AM to 4 PM. This was to increase output to meet the increased demand caused by the sunniest and hottest period of the year. Since then the "glitches" have been more numerous and now rather random. Before there was a glitch every other day at the same time of day. Now glitches occur most days and sometimes more than one during a single pump cycle. The end result is that the output is higher than expected because each glitch resets the controller to start another cycle. I guess that's better than the SWG dropping-out unexpectedly and generating less than expected. It's still not clear what's causing the problem but I'm suspecting it may be the controller overheating and resetting itself. Perhaps the cooling fan isn't running properly or perhaps it's primarily the days being very hot lately. I definitely didn't have such a problem last year. At this point probably the only way to get a handle on the problem is to start swapping parts or the entire controller but that seems extreme. I'll continue to monitor performance as the weather gets cooler and see if that impacts the frequency of the problem. If it does, that points toward an overheating problem.
That’s definitely very odd. Have you been able to observe it happening? I’d be interested to see if the display goes blank for a while, which might suggest that it’s losing power, or if it just seems to immediately reset, or what happens.
- Nov 7, 2018
- 1,049
- Pool Size
- 14000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I have seen it mentioned a couple of times that some of the RJ's have a cooling fan failure issue. I am not sure if you can tell if the fan is running or not, but I would be my first guess. Perhaps there is an issue when it switches polarity? Don't know, but it sounds like there is a malfunction of some sort.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to watch the display when the glitch happens and the random nature of it makes it difficult to do. The pump doesn't seem to stop when this happens so if the power to it is a factor it would have to be just a glitch. In the past, for a few times, the controller has vibrated enough so it could be felt and heard on the inside wall behind where it is mounted. I figured that was probably the fan but that happens infrequently and tough to troubleshoot also. I'm reluctant to take the unit apart in fear of maybe causing another problem. I'm thinking about limping along until winter when the SWG is hardly needed and investigating then.
For what it’s worth, the cover is designed to be removed by the end user because you need to remove the cover in order to switch it from 240V to 120V. It’s just six screws on the back and then it opens up.
Thanks for the reminder Brett, you actually mentioned that to me back in April in another thread about the noise I was experiencing that I thought then might be the fan. You also posted a photo of the interior showing the fax mounted to a sheet metal partition. These problems may be related.
This is a second home and I come and go. This makes it difficult to directly monitor things like this over an extended period. I suppose there wouldn't be much risk in removing the fan and maybe testing it somehow. Maybe I could talk discount salt pool into sending a replacement fan just to see if changing it fixes the problem. They couldn't tell me how it's controlled and functions so I don't know how anyone can troubleshoot it besides simply replacing items like many auto mechanics do.
I believe that it’s just a simple 5V or 12V fan. I‘m sure the voltage would be marked on it, so if you really wanted to you could probably connect it to a 5V or 12V power supply and see if it spins and/or makes noise.
- Nov 7, 2018
- 1,049
- Pool Size
- 14000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I could really see how there might be an issue if the fan isn't working. My model has a pretty large heat sink, but even with that, it gets pretty darn warm to the touch. I might be a little paranoid, but I went so far to adjust my pump/swcg run times to the cooler part of the AM/PM.
I have an RJ60+, not an RJ30, but I posted some views of the inside.
www.troublefreepool.com
My fan was actually 24V and very, very low power. It really just looked like it was to mix the air.
I would hope that they designed it not do go into (partial) thermal shutdown, even under full solar load, but who knows. I also ended up putting a little wooden "roof" over mine as well, even if that was just to preserve component life.
Another Circupool Fan Failure?
I installed a new RJ-60+ this spring. It has been running for about a month. Last week I went out and switched on the timer manually to adjust the percentage (so I was actually out there when it turned on), and it made a loud grinding noise. My brain instantly linked it up and said "that's...
www.troublefreepool.com
My fan was actually 24V and very, very low power. It really just looked like it was to mix the air.
I would hope that they designed it not do go into (partial) thermal shutdown, even under full solar load, but who knows. I also ended up putting a little wooden "roof" over mine as well, even if that was just to preserve component life.
Update:
I finally got a chance to dismount, open and run the controller with it open. The fan was stationary when power was applied. A little nudge by finger a few times got it to spin albeit very slowly. Leaving it for an hour or so like that I found the fan stationary again. Clearly the fan has issues and was probably the source of the odd noises I'd hear occasionally and likely the reason the unit restarts on its own sometimes during operation. For now I must assume the fan is the entire problem and the power to it is OK.
I called Discount Salt Pools and talked to a sales guy. He told me to contact the service department on Monday for a replacement but that he'd heard the fan was on back order. That's likely another indication this is a common problem. I looked at other suppliers and brands of replacement fans, it seems the feedback on all of them isn't great and the connector if supplied might not fit the PCB so I'll probably hold-off until I talk to a parts person at DSP. If I do replace it I'm wondering if it might be worth installing a larger fan by modifying the partition that it mounts to. I suspect larger fans at maybe slower speed would be more durable.
I finally got a chance to dismount, open and run the controller with it open. The fan was stationary when power was applied. A little nudge by finger a few times got it to spin albeit very slowly. Leaving it for an hour or so like that I found the fan stationary again. Clearly the fan has issues and was probably the source of the odd noises I'd hear occasionally and likely the reason the unit restarts on its own sometimes during operation. For now I must assume the fan is the entire problem and the power to it is OK.
I called Discount Salt Pools and talked to a sales guy. He told me to contact the service department on Monday for a replacement but that he'd heard the fan was on back order. That's likely another indication this is a common problem. I looked at other suppliers and brands of replacement fans, it seems the feedback on all of them isn't great and the connector if supplied might not fit the PCB so I'll probably hold-off until I talk to a parts person at DSP. If I do replace it I'm wondering if it might be worth installing a larger fan by modifying the partition that it mounts to. I suspect larger fans at maybe slower speed would be more durable.
Another update:
I contacted DSP on Monday. They had the fan in-stock. With the 80% warranty discount it cost me $7.90 for the part and $9.76 for shipping for a total of $17.66. I called Monday, it was shipped that day and arrived Wednesday. They provided a receipt and tracking by email, rather good service in that respect. The fan was loose in a large box with a single small piece of bubble sheet. Fortunately it survived. Next time I may simply purchase a generic one, probably less expensive and maybe higher quality.
Swapping the fan was easy. The most difficult part was creating an elevated table to support the unit high enough that the wires would reach. The new fan runs at a fairly high speed but pushes little air, evidently it doesn't require much. I was surprised to find that the fan was mounted so it pushes the air toward the transformer instead of the PCB. I suspect it simply stirs the air inside to improve heat transfer. I'm hoping the original fan was oriented the correct way, I replaced it the same way. The controller looks like it might have run two proper cycles after the fan replacement this morning so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the random restarts won't continue.
I inspected and disassembled the old fan out of curiosity. The bearing on the old fan is a single sleeve and had a lot of drag. It's not designed to be disassembled but I was able to force the bearing with fan out of the housing. There is a collar that captures the fan onto the bearing that must be destroyed to remove the bearing. I did this and used some WD40 to clean the fan pin and bearing bore. There was no wear and the joint now ran freely. It turns-out there is round "patch" beneath the fan label on the rear face of the hub. That patch can be removed to expose the bearing joint with the fan in-place. I suspect adding some sort of low viscosity cleaner/lubricant at that spot may have restored the fan to operating condition but who knows for how long. Maybe I'll experiment if/when the new fan fails (I suspect it will fail within the next 15-20 months).
I contacted DSP on Monday. They had the fan in-stock. With the 80% warranty discount it cost me $7.90 for the part and $9.76 for shipping for a total of $17.66. I called Monday, it was shipped that day and arrived Wednesday. They provided a receipt and tracking by email, rather good service in that respect. The fan was loose in a large box with a single small piece of bubble sheet. Fortunately it survived. Next time I may simply purchase a generic one, probably less expensive and maybe higher quality.
Swapping the fan was easy. The most difficult part was creating an elevated table to support the unit high enough that the wires would reach. The new fan runs at a fairly high speed but pushes little air, evidently it doesn't require much. I was surprised to find that the fan was mounted so it pushes the air toward the transformer instead of the PCB. I suspect it simply stirs the air inside to improve heat transfer. I'm hoping the original fan was oriented the correct way, I replaced it the same way. The controller looks like it might have run two proper cycles after the fan replacement this morning so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the random restarts won't continue.
I inspected and disassembled the old fan out of curiosity. The bearing on the old fan is a single sleeve and had a lot of drag. It's not designed to be disassembled but I was able to force the bearing with fan out of the housing. There is a collar that captures the fan onto the bearing that must be destroyed to remove the bearing. I did this and used some WD40 to clean the fan pin and bearing bore. There was no wear and the joint now ran freely. It turns-out there is round "patch" beneath the fan label on the rear face of the hub. That patch can be removed to expose the bearing joint with the fan in-place. I suspect adding some sort of low viscosity cleaner/lubricant at that spot may have restored the fan to operating condition but who knows for how long. Maybe I'll experiment if/when the new fan fails (I suspect it will fail within the next 15-20 months).
Another update to maybe help others with RJs:
Replacing the fan had little or no affect on the inconsistent cycle times. The unit was set at 80% with the pump running for 6 hours per day. This should result in two "on" cycles of 144 minutes for 288 minutes per day total. I saw some 144 minute cycles, especially the first active cell period but many restarts/glitches resulted in inconsistent cycles and an average active cell time of 297 minutes per day. The controller setting was changed to 70% on Sept 3 because FC was higher than needed (about 10). This should have resulted in two 127 minute active cell periods for a total of 254. I saw a few of the 127 minute active periods, especially for the first active cycle, over the first five days but restarts/glitches resulted in an average total active cell time of 314 minutes per day. That's right, lowering the setting by 10% actually resulted in an increase output!
I can go way back and look at the active cycles on my energy monitor and I did that out of curiosity. It seems that this SWG controller worked properly, consistently and predictably until March of this year. Something has changed since then; maybe it's just the higher outside temperature and/or the controller is defective. I'll drop the setting lower and monitor for a while to try to achieve the required output to match the pool's need and also try to better understand what may be happening. I suppose I could try to swap out the main control PCB and it might come to that. I could also simply run the SWG at 100% and just reduce my pump time but at some point the pump time would be too low to properly skim and mix the pool.
If you have a RJ, especially an older one, that seems inconsistent then you may have a similar problem. Without the ability to track actual operation (energy monitor) the owner has no idea if the unit is functioning as expected/designed. Once again the good news is that these glitches have always increased chlorine production so if anything the unit will produce more than expected, at least on some days.
Replacing the fan had little or no affect on the inconsistent cycle times. The unit was set at 80% with the pump running for 6 hours per day. This should result in two "on" cycles of 144 minutes for 288 minutes per day total. I saw some 144 minute cycles, especially the first active cell period but many restarts/glitches resulted in inconsistent cycles and an average active cell time of 297 minutes per day. The controller setting was changed to 70% on Sept 3 because FC was higher than needed (about 10). This should have resulted in two 127 minute active cell periods for a total of 254. I saw a few of the 127 minute active periods, especially for the first active cycle, over the first five days but restarts/glitches resulted in an average total active cell time of 314 minutes per day. That's right, lowering the setting by 10% actually resulted in an increase output!
I can go way back and look at the active cycles on my energy monitor and I did that out of curiosity. It seems that this SWG controller worked properly, consistently and predictably until March of this year. Something has changed since then; maybe it's just the higher outside temperature and/or the controller is defective. I'll drop the setting lower and monitor for a while to try to achieve the required output to match the pool's need and also try to better understand what may be happening. I suppose I could try to swap out the main control PCB and it might come to that. I could also simply run the SWG at 100% and just reduce my pump time but at some point the pump time would be too low to properly skim and mix the pool.
If you have a RJ, especially an older one, that seems inconsistent then you may have a similar problem. Without the ability to track actual operation (energy monitor) the owner has no idea if the unit is functioning as expected/designed. Once again the good news is that these glitches have always increased chlorine production so if anything the unit will produce more than expected, at least on some days.
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