Auto Fill pipe leaking? Not the float valve

[diamonddog]

I think my auto Fill pipe is leaking or the fitting is leaking.

The system is a MP Industries auto Fill. My pool fills up when the float valve is closed. I replaced it 2 times. Last time with a heavy duty one from float alvetec.com. Still keeps filling. If I shut off the water shut off it stops filling. I can't hear the float valve running when the shut off is in open position and pool reaches set level.

Thinking a fitting, or pipe is leaking. I actually think it may have been leaking a while but didn't notice as the summer weather evaporates the water faster than the leak.

On my pool tile I notice scale on the tile (beyond just on grout lines) that looks like it's cause from running water. Also mineral deposits on the edge of the concrete. It's only on the section by the auto Fill about 4 feet in both directions from the auto Fill.

Don't want to jack hammer concrete. Wondering if they can epoxy coat the inside of a 1/2 pipe and if someone can do that by access the pipe from the 8" opening?

Afraid the water can cause a gap betwen pool and soil. Also wondering why muddy water doesn't seem evident (if the pipe is leaking)
Don't see water Saturation stains on the concrete. I had the concrete coated and the dark spots are the coating wearing off or not wearing off
What are your thought s?

 

[ajw22]

I am not sure what is going on with your autofill.

The scale on your tiles and deck is Efflorescence - Further Reading

Water is flowing from on and under your deck, carrying minerals onto its tiles and sides.

It is not just around the autofill and you can see it on the side of step on the left.

 

[diamonddog]

I am not sure what is going on with your autofill.

The scale on your tiles and deck is Efflorescence - Further Reading

Water is flowing from on and under your deck, carrying minerals onto its tiles and sides.

It is not just around the autofill and you can see it on the side of step on the left.

View attachment 621491

Well maybe this is good news and this means there is no leak in the auto ill pipe. Still can't figure out why it won't stop filling after changing the float valve twice and don't hear water running.

 

[ajw22]

Well maybe this is good news and this means there is no leak in the auto ill pipe. Still can't figure out why it won't stop filling after changing the float valve twice and don't hear water running.

The float valves seem to be very finicky in having a positive shutoff.

Have you tried contacting MP Industries?

Water Levelers | Mp Industries

www.mp-industries.com

CONTACT US:
Tel: 714-375-7771
Fax: 714-375-7767
Email: [email protected]
16131 Gothard Street, Unit "N"
Huntington Beach, CA . 92647

 

[diamonddog]

The float valves seem to be very finicky in having a positive shutoff.

Have you tried contacting MP Industries?

Water Levelers | Mp Industries

www.mp-industries.com

CONTACT US:
Tel: 714-375-7771
Fax: 714-375-7767
Email: [email protected]
16131 Gothard Street, Unit "N"
Huntington Beach, CA . 92647

Contacted them but bought what I th ugh was a better leveler from the source in my OP and not MP. I've been using a cheap float valve for about 7 years,then it leaked and then installed a cheap one that iworked for years. Then I replaced it with another cheap one, and pool filled up. Then I bought the premium one listed in OP and pool filled again.

 

[ajw22]

Let's see if @1poolman1 @wireform @Lake Placid @98Poolmaster has ideas.

 

[Dirk]

Does the valve screw into a threaded fitting? If they are standard threads, you can remove the valve and replace it with a threaded plug, with a good wrap of teflon tape, or pipe dope, or both. Turn the auto-fill supply line on, with everything else in the house and yard off. Then find your city water meter and observe the flow indicator. They are very sensitive. You might even record the reading (take a photo of it) and come back some time later (30 minutes or so). If that flow indicator, and the usage numbers, have not budged, then you don't have a leak in the pipe (or anywhere else on your property). So it'd be a faulty valve (or o-ring somewhere in the valve). Conversely, if the water meter indicates flow, then you have a leak somewhere in your plumbing (though it could be in some other pipe in the yard or house).

If you can manage to leave the auto-fill supply on a small amount while you screw in the plug, that will minimize trapping any air behind the plug, which can affect this test.

This basic troubleshooting technique "splits the problem in half," and will tell you on which half the problem lies.

 

[Dirk]

If you've never used this technique to track down a plumbing leak, the flow indictor will look something like this:

 

[diamonddog]

Does the valve screw into a threaded fitting? If they are standard threads, you can remove the valve and replace it with a threaded plug, with a good wrap of teflon tape, or pipe dope, or both. Turn the auto-fill supply line on, with everything else in the house and yard off. Then find your city water meter and observe the flow indicator. They are very sensitive. You might even record the reading (take a photo of it) and come back some time later (30 minutes or so). If that flow indicator, and the usage numbers, have not budged, then you don't have a leak in the pipe (or anywhere else on your property). So it'd be a faulty valve (or o-ring somewhere in the valve). Conversely, if the water meter indicates flow, then you have a leak somewhere in your plumbing (though it could be in some other pipe in the yard or house).

If you can manage to leave the auto-fill supply on a small amount while you screw in the plug, that will minimize trapping any air behind the plug, which can affect this test.

This basic troubleshooting technique "splits the problem in half," and will tell you on which half the problem lies.

Duh. Should have thought of this. Will do it. Thanks. I will report back. May be a bit as I'm traveling and shut the water off as I want tit to go down.

 

[wireform]

To me it doesn't sound like the auto fill valve is the actual problem because one of the other tried valves should have been able to put the problem to bed. I would suspect the auto fill housing may be cracked and water is seeping in possibly through the crack and filling the pool too besides the other signs of water in the tiles. As @Dirk said to plug it but I have a different spin on the testing method of which you'd go to the other end of the auto fill line and pressure test it while isolated and see if it holds pressure.

 

[Dirk]

I have a different spin on the testing method of which you'd go to the other end of the auto fill line and pressure test it while isolated and see if it holds pressure.

That'd work, but...
- my MO requires no special tools or gauges or adapters, the flow indicator is already in place, and more importantly:
- requires taking apart only the auto-valve assembly (something he already knows how to do) and not getting into accessing the other end.

Taking apart plumbing runs the risk of causing a new problem where none existed: breaking something, popping a seal, crossing threads, etc. It may come to your pressure test, should the flow indicator reveal the problem is on the street-side of the fitting the auto-fill valve goes into, but I'd still recommend the least invasive test first. Then go from there.

 

[diamonddog]

That'd work, but...
- my MO requires no special tools or gauges or adapters, the flow indicator is already in place, and more importantly:
- requires taking apart only the auto-valve assembly (something he already knows how to do) and not getting into accessing the other end.

Taking apart plumbing runs the risk of causing a new problem where none existed: breaking something, popping a seal, crossing threads, etc. It may come to your pressure test, should the flow indicator reveal the problem is on the street-side of the fitting the auto-fill valve goes into, but I'd still recommend the least invasive test first. Then go from there.

Ok Reporting back in. I shut the main water fill water line off for a week and the pool water line dropped.
This should rule out external sources filling my pool.

Today I checked the triangle indicator on my water meter with the pool fill valve and no movement on the triangle indicator eliminating other leaks on my property.

Plugged the autofill hole with a 3/8" plug. turned on Valve and there is movement on the triangle. Had to mark it and come back 15 minutes later to see the change.

The attached picture is the valve (looks like a manual sprinkler valve control) and noticed there is water coming out of the pressure relief part of the valve. Not sure if this is causing the triangle indicator to move.

Leaving on the valve to the fill line, plug in hole, marked water line in the inground fill tub as well as 2 places in the pool to see if the water line rises.

Any other advice?

 

[Dirk]

The attached picture is the valve (looks like a manual sprinkler valve control) and noticed there is water coming out of the pressure relief part of the valve. Not sure if this is causing the triangle indicator to move.

Well, this is a problem if not the problem. Sprinkler valves are not rated for 24/7 pressure downstream of them. They are expecting running sprinklers when on/open (low pressure), and then drained or near-empty pipes when off/closed (no pressure). The auto-fill float valve is maintaining the full pressure of your water system on the "wrong" side of that sprinkler valve's pressure relief mechanism, and it is now failing. Unfortunately, this is a typical installation by pool contractors that don't know any better.

Now, those valves can dribble some water when you apply and relieve them of pressure, so the water you're seeing could be that. But if it's not failing now, it will.

You need to replace that valve with one that is rated for full pressure on both sides of it. I use these. They are a good brand:

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

Sorry to rub it in, but these durn things get more expensive every time I share that link. So if you want to wait until it has a catastrophic failure, it'll likely be even more expensive.

OK, that was "part a." Part b... I read your post multiple times, and cannot wrap my head around which valves and parts you're talking about where. But it's 2am so it might be me.
- main water fill water line?
- pool fill valve?
- autofill hole?
- turned on Valve?
- attached picture is the valve?
- Leaving on the valve to the fill line?
- inground fill tub?

We probably need some vocabulary for all the parts. There's no standard, but we can start with these. You should have:
- a "city water meter shut-off valve" (located at the meter).
- the "city water meter flow indicator" (the triangle)
- a "water main shut-off valve" (usually located somewhere outside, near the house, near the ground)*
- an "auto-fill system shut-off valve" (that's probably the sprinkler valve you're referring to)
- the "auto-fill float valve" located inside:
- the "auto-fill well" (what I think you're calling "fill tub")

* FYI: your "auto-fill system shut-off valve" might be plumbed before OR after your "water main shut-off valve." So closing the "water main shut-off valve" may or may not cut off the water supply to the "auto-fill system shut-off valve." That's easy enough to determine, and something you should know, for this and future use.

So, the dribbling "auto-fill system shut-off valve" may or may not be failing (which should be replaced regardless, as described above) might cause the "city water meter flow indicator" to move. But unless the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" is dribbling constantly, the "city water meter flow indicator" would not move constantly just from that.

If you removed the "auto-fill float valve" and plugged its port properly (inside the "auto-fill well"), and the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" is open, and not leaking constantly, and you still get movement of the "city water meter flow indicator," then that would point to a leak in the pipe between the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" and the "auto-fill well." And that'd be the worst case scenario. But that's a lot of ifs. Before you go digging that up, you'd have to 100% confirm that (1) the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" is leaking constantly or not, and (2) that you plugged the port in the "auto-fill well" properly.

Is the port in the "auto-fill well" out of, or under the water? If the port is above the pool's water level, then it should be easy enough to determine (1) and (2).

After that confirmation, this is now where @wireform's idea to pressure test that pipe might be appropriate. If it were me...

Since I would want to replace the current "auto-fill system shut-off valve" regardless, I would start there. The Pressure Vacuum Breaker I recommended has multiple shut-off valves on it, so if that was in place, and installed correctly, you could be assured of a good shut off at that point. I would then install a pressure gauge on the port in the "auto-fill well," pressurize the pipe between that port and the new "auto-fill system shut-off valve," then shut off both valves on the new "auto-fill system shut-off valve" and let that sit, under pressure, for some number of days. That would determine, once and for all, if you have a leak between the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" and the port in the "auto-fill well."

The result of that test will determine next steps...

 

[diamonddog]

Well, this is a problem if not the problem. Sprinkler valves are not rated for 24/7 pressure downstream of them. They are expecting running sprinklers when on/open (low pressure), and then drained or near-empty pipes when off/closed (no pressure). The auto-fill float valve is maintaining the full pressure of your water system on the "wrong" side of that sprinkler valve's pressure relief mechanism, and it is now failing. Unfortunately, this is a typical installation by pool contractors that don't know any better.

Now, those valves can dribble some water when you apply and relieve them of pressure, so the water you're seeing could be that. But if it's not failing now, it will.

You need to replace that valve with one that is rated for full pressure on both sides of it. I use these. They are a good brand:

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

Sorry to rub it in, but these durn things get more expensive every time I share that link. So if you want to wait until it has a catastrophic failure, it'll likely be even more expensive.

OK, that was "part a." Part b... I read your post multiple times, and cannot wrap my head around which valves and parts you're talking about where. But it's 2am so it might be me.
- main water fill water line?
- pool fill valve?
- autofill hole?
- turned on Valve?
- attached picture is the valve?
- Leaving on the valve to the fill line?
- inground fill tub?

We probably need some vocabulary for all the parts. There's no standard, but we can start with these. You should have:
- a "city water meter shut-off valve" (located at the meter).
- the "city water meter flow indicator" (the triangle)
- a "water main shut-off valve" (usually located somewhere outside, near the house, near the ground)*
- an "auto-fill system shut-off valve" (that's probably the sprinkler valve you're referring to)
- the "auto-fill float valve" located inside:
- the "auto-fill well" (what I think you're calling "fill tub")

* FYI: your "auto-fill system shut-off valve" might be plumbed before OR after your "water main shut-off valve." So closing the "water main shut-off valve" may or may not cut off the water supply to the "auto-fill system shut-off valve." That's easy enough to determine, and something you should know, for this and future use.

So, the dribbling "auto-fill system shut-off valve" may or may not be failing (which should be replaced regardless, as described above) might cause the "city water meter flow indicator" to move. But unless the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" is dribbling constantly, the "city water meter flow indicator" would not move constantly just from that.

If you removed the "auto-fill float valve" and plugged its port properly (inside the "auto-fill well"), and the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" is open, and not leaking constantly, and you still get movement of the "city water meter flow indicator," then that would point to a leak in the pipe between the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" and the "auto-fill well." And that'd be the worst case scenario. But that's a lot of ifs. Before you go digging that up, you'd have to 100% confirm that (1) the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" is leaking constantly or not, and (2) that you plugged the port in the "auto-fill well" properly.

Is the port in the "auto-fill well" out of, or under the water? If the port is above the pool's water level, then it should be easy enough to determine (1) and (2).

After that confirmation, this is now where @wireform's idea to pressure test that pipe might be appropriate. If it were me...

Since I would want to replace the current "auto-fill system shut-off valve" regardless, I would start there. The Pressure Vacuum Breaker I recommended has multiple shut-off valves on it, so if that was in place, and installed correctly, you could be assured of a good shut off at that point. I would then install a pressure gauge on the port in the "auto-fill well," pressurize the pipe between that port and the new "auto-fill system shut-off valve," then shut off both valves on the new "auto-fill system shut-off valve" and let that sit, under pressure, for some number of days. That would determine, once and for all, if you have a leak between the "auto-fill system shut-off valve" and the port in the "auto-fill well."

The result of that test will determine next steps...

Thanks for all the information and time.

The pool fill shutoff is plumbed after the main shut off valve.

Currently the port in the inground pool filler is plugged. With water level of pool and in the pool filler bucket marked.

The reason this all started is because the water level rose to the over flow drain under the coping.

If this is a leak in the plumbing, I still can not figure out how water is getting in the pool and filling it up. I am not noticing and water on the pool tile (e.g. if it was seeping through soil, and caulking and getting in pool).

 

[diamonddog]

Just looked at the pool tile, I can see water trickling from top of tile at caulk line into the pool. This would seem to suggest a leak in the pipe, saturating the soil around the pool and leaking into the pool..

This sucks

 

[Dirk]

Just looked at the pool tile, I can see water trickling from top of tile at caulk line into the pool. This would seem to suggest a leak in the pipe, saturating the soil around the pool and leaking into the pool..

That's certainly a strong clue to that conclusion. As suggested, you can pressure test that pipe to see if it is leaking.

 

[diamonddog]

That's certainly a strong clue to that conclusion. As suggested, you can pressure test that pipe to see if it is leaking.

Here are my options as I see them. Please comment as appropriate to see if I am missing something.

#1 Pay to have someone locate the leak, jack hammer concrete, fix it, install the correct pool fill pressure relieving valve. Unlikely I would do this as this would be an ordeal.

#2 Pay to have someone locate the leak, epoxy coat the inside of the pipe (repipe alternative plumbing service), change the pool fill pressure relieve valve. Not sre they can coat the inside of a 1/2 pipe and access it through the 8" pool fill tub hole

#3 Go back to how I used to fill the pool manually, . Problem here is, mosquitos can breed in the tub and I cant plug it because the water has to go through the tub before exiting into the pool, not to mention the algae growth in stagnant water.

 

[Dirk]

#1 Pay to have someone locate the leak, jack hammer concrete, fix it, install the correct pool fill pressure relieving valve. Unlikely I would do this as this would be an ordeal.

Well, first you need to determine if that pipe is actually leaking.

#2 Pay to have someone locate the leak, epoxy coat the inside of the pipe (repipe alternative plumbing service), change the pool fill pressure relieve valve. Not sre they can coat the inside of a 1/2 pipe and access it through the 8" pool fill tub hole

See above.

#3 Go back to how I used to fill the pool manually, . Problem here is, mosquitos can breed in the tub and I cant plug it because the water has to go through the tub before exiting into the pool, not to mention the algae growth in stagnant water.

Personally, I would do what it took to keep my auto-leveling system. I wouldn't want to own a pool without one. I would either forget to fill the pool, and burn up my pump. Or forget to turn off the fill, several times a month and pay the water company. It's just too convenient to do without.

I don't know anything about epoxy coating a pipe, but I do know there are systems that can replace an underground pipe with a new one without disturbing the ground or pavement above.

So IF that pipe is leaking, you're probably not going to have to break concrete.

 

[Dirk]

I was going to try and find info about the replacement system, but I'm out of time today. Google "Trenchless Water Line Replacement." There are probably multiple solutions...

 

[Dirk]

Keep in mind, even if there is not enough room near the auto-fill well for the replacement (or epoxy) process, they could break a small amount of concrete to make the room they'd need. You wouldn't necessarily have to trench through your entire deck.