Auto Fill During Freezes

[mas985]

The problem with caps and plugs is that it does not leave any room for expansion and depending on the scenario can cause more problems than it prevents. In this case, it could cause problems because it will be difficult to keep water out of the fill bucket. Plus the pool water acts as a heat source for the water in the bucket so you might be better off removing the float valve and just leaving it as is with perhaps a foam noodle or empty bottle in the bucket to contract should the bucket freeze. Lowering the pool level enough such that water does not flow back into the supply line for the bucket might be prudent as well although I am a bit surprised that the bucket water level is close to that point anyway.

 

[atxjmy512]

The problem with caps and plugs is that it does not leave any room for expansion and depending on the scenario can cause more problems than it prevents. In this case, it could cause problems because it will be difficult to keep water out of the fill bucket. Plus the pool water acts as a heat source for the water in the bucket so you might be better off removing the float valve and just leaving it as is with perhaps a foam noodle or empty bottle in the bucket to contract should the bucket freeze. Lowering the pool level enough such that water does not flow back into the supply line for the bucket might be prudent as well although I am a bit surprised that the bucket water level is close to that point anyway.

I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying. The way I have it capped - water cannot flow back from the pool into auto fill bucket. I've shut the supply off as well - so I'm not sure how water would make it into the auto fill bucket. And I'll be removing as much standing water as i can from the bucket. And I plan to remove the float, and drain all water from the supply line / RPZ. I feel like I'm missing something.

 

[Dirk]

I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying. The way I have it capped - water cannot flow back from the pool into auto fill bucket. I've shut the supply off as well - so I'm not sure how water would make it into the auto fill bucket. And I'll be removing as much standing water as i can from the bucket. And I plan to remove the float, and drain all water from the supply line / RPZ. I feel like I'm missing something.

Three somethings (at least). Rain. Leaky plug. Leaky valve.

 

[mas985]

Have you sealed the top of the fill bucket sufficiently so that rain/snow cannot make its way into the bucket?

 

[atxjmy512]

Have you sealed the top of the fill bucket sufficiently so that rain/snow cannot make its way into the bucket?

Fair question. As of now - no. Having said that - we haven't had significant rain here in years, and we don't get snow (beyond a sprinkling). Wouldn't that just overflow though?

And I guess I'm trying to figure out how to action that... I was told by another poster that taking the float valve out wouldn't save me from pipe freeze damage, that i needed to drain at least 10% of the water out of the line. If that's true - how do I drain 10% out if I remove the float and also let water flow freely from pool to bucket. My pool is a "flooded" system where the pool is higher than the auto fill, so I have constant gravity fed pressure refilling the line unless i physically stop the flow of water somehow - whether that be capping the outlet in the pool or leaving the float in place.

Also important context - I'm not looking for a winter long solution. I'm looking for something to get me through 4 days of sub 20 temps at night. This isn't a solution i plan to leave in place longer than a week.

 

[mas985]

First a disclaimer. The following comments apply to only your location/weather conditions and may not be appropriate for all locations. I just don't want others to think this advice is universal.

I think it was me that suggested the 10%. But that is only for a fully sealed pipe on both ends. Pipes freeze from the outside to the center and as ice forms, it pushes excess water out through the center of the pipe as the pipe freezes out of the open end. Where freeze damage occurs is generally at closed valves and sealed pipes where this excess pressure can get high enough to burst the pipe which is why I don't suggest sealing a pipe unless it is absolutely necessary. It is best to leave all valves in the open positions and all pipes without plugs or seals if possible.

The pipe from the house supply to the bucket is fairly well protected because it should be below the frost line for most of the run and the earth will act like a heat source to prevent any of the water from freezing except for maybe right at the outlet into the bucket since that is closer to the air/sky. But that part should empty when you remove the float valve. Was it this line that you said was below pool level or was it the line between the bucket and the pool?

This leaves the bucket and the line from the bucket into the pool. But as I said before, that part is unlikely to freeze given your location and the fact that the pool water will supply heat to the bucket via the connection pipe until it is close to freezing. If you monitor pool temps, you will know if it will get even close to freezing which I doubt. But for added protection, a pool noodle or empty bottle in the bucket might be wise. The pipe at the bottom of the bucket would be last to freeze and would not freeze until the pool froze close to that depth.

I just think sealing the pipe from the pool to the bucket and trying to keep the bucket free of water could be problematic and could result in freeze damage if you are not constantly monitoring it.

 

[Toxophilite]

Fair question. As of now - no. Having said that - we haven't had significant rain here in years, and we don't get snow (beyond a sprinkling). Wouldn't that just overflow though?

And I guess I'm trying to figure out how to action that... I was told by another poster that taking the float valve out wouldn't save me from pipe freeze damage, that i needed to drain at least 10% of the water out of the line. If that's true - how do I drain 10% out if I remove the float and also let water flow freely from pool to bucket. My pool is a "flooded" system where the pool is higher than the auto fill, so I have constant gravity fed pressure refilling the line unless i physically stop the flow of water somehow - whether that be capping the outlet in the pool or leaving the float in place.

Also important context - I'm not looking for a winter long solution. I'm looking for something to get me through 4 days of sub 20 temps at night. This isn't a solution i plan to leave in place longer than a week.

In all honesty, in Texas, especially this far down, we don't have long enough and low enough temps in Winter to worry about anything in the ground freezing. If you cover or throw a blanket over it, even more so. You can test this by covering the soil with an overturned bucket. During freezing weather, stick your hand under and inside that bucket. It will feel toasty warm under there.

 

[atxjmy512]

First a disclaimer. The following comments apply to only your location/weather conditions and may not be appropriate for all locations. I just don't want others to think this advice is universal.

I think it was me that suggested the 10%. But that is only for a fully sealed pipe on both ends. Pipes freeze from the outside to the center and as ice forms, it pushes excess water out through the center of the pipe as the pipe freezes out of the open end. Where freeze damage occurs is generally at closed valves and sealed pipes where this excess pressure can get high enough to burst the pipe which is why I don't suggest sealing a pipe unless it is absolutely necessary. It is best to leave all valves in the open positions and all pipes without plugs or seals if possible.

The pipe from the house supply to the bucket is fairly well protected because it should be below the frost line for most of the run and the earth will act like a heat source to prevent any of the water from freezing except for maybe right at the outlet into the bucket since that is closer to the air/sky. But that part should empty when you remove the float valve. Was it this line that you said was below pool level or was it the line between the bucket and the pool?

This leaves the bucket and the line from the bucket into the pool. But as I said before, that part is unlikely to freeze given your location and the fact that the pool water will supply heat to the bucket via the connection pipe until it is close to freezing. If you monitor pool temps, you will know if it will get even close to freezing which I doubt. But for added protection, a pool noodle or empty bottle in the bucket might be wise. The pipe at the bottom of the bucket would be last to freeze and would not freeze until the pool froze close to that depth.

I just think sealing the pipe from the pool to the bucket and trying to keep the bucket free of water could be problematic and could result in freeze damage if you are not constantly monitoring it.

Thanks for the additional explanation. Let's try this... Here's a rudimentary diagram of my set up. Most of the pipe from the house supply is below ground at varying depths. There is a section that is above ground immediately at the house / rpz and its insulated as best it can be. What I am referring to when i reference the pool being higher is the RPZ... It sits at a lower elevation than the pool, and because of this if i were to remove the float valve and drain the RPZ without also capping the poolside outlet the pool will simply drain out of my open RPZ until it gets below that point because of gravity. That's the problem I'm trying to solve - how do I drain my RPZ without draining my pool - and i can't see a way to do that without either leaving the float in place or capping the pool side.

 

[atxjmy512]

In all honesty, in Texas, especially this far down, we don't have long enough and low enough temps in Winter to worry about anything in the ground freezing. If you cover or throw a blanket over it, even more so. You can test this by covering the soil with an overturned bucket. During freezing weather, stick your hand under and inside that bucket. It will feel toasty warm under there.

I'm more worried about the RPZ. My outside hose faucets freeze multiple times per year without intervention so I can't say these will have a different outcome when it hits 17 next week. I know the answer is to drain it - I'm just struggling with how to do that with my specific pool configuration.

 

[mas985]

We get below freezing every year and sometimes down to 15F and I have never used freeze protection nor done anything to protect my autofill or anything else. I don't think your location is much worse than mine.

It takes much longer for plumbing to freeze than a lot people realize. This might be useful to put your mind at ease to assess the true risk of your situation.

The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection

Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...

www.troublefreepool.com

Also, outside faucets are a different animal. They usually have metal piping and are closed off due to the hose bib. So they are much more vulnerable. BTW, are they still freezing even when the hose has been detached?

Any above ground pipe and fittings can usually be protected by either draining the equipment or a simple tarp. The below ground and in-ground plumbing is not likely to freeze in your location. I think your AF is safe without any extreme measures.

 

[atxjmy512]

We get below freezing every year and sometimes down to 15F and I have never used freeze protection nor done anything to protect my autofill or anything else. I don't think your location is much worse than mine.

It takes much longer for plumbing to freeze than a lot people realize. This might be useful to put your mind at ease to assess the true risk of your situation.

The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection

Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...

www.troublefreepool.com

Also, outside faucets are a different animal. They usually have metal piping and are closed off due to the hose bib. So they are much more vulnerable. BTW, are they still freezing even when the hose has been detached?

Any above ground pipe and fittings can usually be protected by either draining the equipment or a simple tarp. The below ground and in-ground plumbing is not likely to freeze in your location. I think your AF is safe without any extreme measures.

Yes, they still freeze even with the hose detached. I usually have to use a freeze miser if we drop below the upper 20s. How I avoided a burst hose pipe during the great Texas Freeze is a mystery. T Youve convinced me that the line itself is likely not at any real risk.. Having said that - I still think the RPZ is. Sprinkler RPZs break all the time around here during these snaps because Texas homes are really poorly built when it comes to the cold temps. If there's anything i can do that would enable me to avoid spending $1000 to replace an RPZ, I'd certainly like to do it.

 

[mas985]

Where is it located? Can you post a picture? I though earlier you said it was near the pad equipment. Simply wrapping it foam should be enough keep from freezing. A tarp might be enough as well.

Also, it might actually be better not turn off the AF or remove anything. There is always evaporation and a slow amount of water moving through the RPZ and plumbing is actually a good thing in this case and will help prevent freezing.

 

[Toxophilite]

Sprinkler RPZs break all the time around here during these snaps because Texas homes are really poorly built when it comes to the cold temps. If there's anything i can do that would enable me to avoid spending $1000 to replace an RPZ, I'd certainly like to do it.

With mine, the pipes are wrapped in foam. There are 2 bleed screws that allow you to empty valve assembly once valves are closed. I sill throw a blanket or box over it.

 

[atxjmy512]

With mine, the pipes are wrapped in foam. There are 2 bleed screws that allow you to empty valve assembly once valves are closed. I sill throw a blanket or box over it.

Yes, i feel a little dumb but i was just playing with it and i can isolate just the RPZ. and successfully drained it at as test.

 

[atxjmy512]

Where is it located? Can you post a picture? I though earlier you said it was near the pad equipment. Simply wrapping it foam should be enough keep from freezing. A tarp might be enough as well.

Also, it might actually be better not turn off the AF or remove anything. There is always evaporation and a slow amount of water moving through the RPZ and plumbing is actually a good thing in this case and will help prevent freezing.

I'll grab a picture tomorrow. The RPZ / Hose Faucet is on the side of my house where my pool equipment and HVAC equipment is. However, they are not right next to my pool equipment and is about 15 - 20 ft from it. It's outside my fence line next to my garage wall - which is partially why hose freezes. It's adjacent to an unheated space (we also don't have frost proof spigots here generally speaking).

 

[generessler]

The other tools you have are RV antifreeze (if you can plug things off but not remove all the water) and closed cell backer rod, which comes in 1/2" to 3" in diameters.

A thing to remember is if a column of water extends below the frost line, the chances of it freezing are slim. Cold water on the surface sinks and picks up heat from the soil below, so there's constant slow circulation. Texas design frost line is 10 inches, and rarely does it actually get there. One week at 20F is unlikely to do it. If the column does freeze a little at the surface, a weighted bottle or backer rod takes up the expansion.

 

[atxjmy512]

The other tools you have are RV antifreeze (if you can plug things off but not remove all the water) and closed cell backer rod, which comes in 1/2" to 3" in diameters.

A thing to remember is if a column of water extends below the frost line, the chances of it freezing are slim. Cold water on the surface sinks and picks up heat from the soil below, so there's constant slow circulation. Texas design frost line is 10 inches, and rarely does it actually get there. One week at 20F is unlikely to do it. If the column does freeze a little at the surface, a weighted bottle or backer rod takes up the expansion.

There are definitely some areas where my supply line is not 10" below the surface. But I did what i could when landscaping after construction to add a few inches of top soil, and another few inches of gravel with weed control fabric - so hopefully that's enough.

Where would i put this anti freeze and backer rod? In the Supply line itself? In the AF bucket?

 

[jeckford]

I am also in Austin Texas and worried about my first winter and below freezing temps next week. I am out of the country all week next week so my pool will be unattended when the temps drop. Should I just temporarily drain my pool equipment and turn the autotopoff for the week that I Am gone And restart everything when I get back?

 

[mas985]

What is the smallest pipe size that you have? (pressure side cleaners have very small pipe)

What is the current water temperature?

If freezing temps are less than about 8 hours per day, 1.5" and larger pipe is pretty safe.

 

[mfifield01]

I am also in Austin Texas and worried about my first winter and below freezing temps next week. I am out of the country all week next week so my pool will be unattended when the temps drop. Should I just temporarily drain my pool equipment and turn the autotopoff for the week that I Am gone And restart everything when I get back?

For the pool and most equipment, I wouldn't worry too much. I asked my Dad about his pool in the '21 freeze and he didn't do anything besides have the system automatically use freeze protection. His power didn't go out, so that would be the only concern.