Adjusting Actuator from 100-100 to 100-80

[Dirk]

I've got a 3-way valve balancing pump intake between my skimmer and my vacuum's suction port. I had an actuator installed on it so that my automation could route 100% suction to vac, then 100% suction to skimmer, to improve the efficiency of both. Works great.

But it occurred to me that, while that suction port is technically compliant (a proper suction port safety flap, and that port is 100% off unless the vacuum is engaged), there exists two potential dangers, one to humans, and the other to the pump. With some only slightly-unlikely human interaction:

1. that suction port could be active and come in contact with a person, or

2. the hose could be left off with the safety flap closed and the vacuum cycle engaged so that the pump would be sucking on a closed pipe.

I think it would be prudent for me to adjust that three-way valve so that it could apply 100% suction to the skimmer, but only 80% suction to the vacuum port. That way, if the suction port safety flap is closed and the pump is directed to it, then at least some water could be drawn from the skimmer to protect the pump. More importantly, if a human came in contact with the suction port active, then there would be some relief through the skimmer and make that situation much safer.

So two questions:

Would anybody know if 80% flow through the suction port and 20% flow through the skimmer would accomplish these goals?

And, never having done this, what is my resource for adjusting the actuator in this way?

It's a Compool CCA-24T actuator sitting atop a Pentair 3-way. Are there any instructions for this adjustment? Is it obvious once inside the actuator? Or is this a complicated adjustment?

 

[kimkats]

Way beyond me Dirk but here is a bump.

 

[CJadamec]

You can adjust that valve, well almost all valve actuators have adjustable cams in them to limit valve travel one way or another. Some are more tricking to adjust than others. Plan on an hour of playing with it to get it adjusted the way you want. If it only takes 10 min like the instructions make it look like then its bonus free time for you.

https://pentairpool.com/en/products/automation/valve actuator Google tells me your compool valve is a Pentair valve. Towards the bottom of the page is the installation instructions that tell you how to adjust the cams.

 

[Dirk]

Thanks Cjadamec, just what I needed. I searched for a manual, but all I got was a video or two, that weren't clear about the brand. When I first went out to get the model #, and noticed the case didn't read "Pentair," I was cursing my pool guy, who I assumed had given me some sort of knock-off actuator, not realizing that those are, in effect, Pentair's.

The cams sound simple enough. 10 minutes for someone in the know, an hour for someone new to it. OK, so two hours then, right.

The more important part of the mystery remains, though: we know 100% could be dangerous, but optimal for my vac. And 50-50 would be very safe, in essence converting the single suction opening to a dual opening, a pool's-width apart, but will trash my vac's performance. So my dilemma is to figure out the happy middle.

I can dial in easily enough the balance that won't compromise my vac's performance (I was going to start with 80% suction and 20% skimmer), by using the vac's flow gauge and just dialing up the VS pump's RPM until the gauge indicates proper flow. The more important factor is whether any cam adjustment is going to deliver what I'm after, and how to know. "80-20" is just random, there's actually no way I can even measure that.

If I try a cam setting that takes most of the water from the suction port, and some lesser amount from the skimmer, and then ramp up the VS pump to optimize the port for the vac's performance, how do I know that's going to be safe for my kids and my pump?! If I close the flap and fire up the pump, how do I determine that enough water is getting to the pump, though that "20% skimmer", without burning up my pump to find out?! My vac runs for 1.5 hours each day. Say I forgot to put the vac back online after a party, and the pump runs the next day with the flap closed. That's the scenario I'm trying to protect my pump from. One day I went out to the pool and the vac hose was disconnected, floating in the pool. Don't even know how that happened. Flap was closed. What if that happened on the first day of my week-long vacation away?

I've actually done it once, forgot to put the vac back on, and the pump was fine. It must have been sucking on that closed port the whole hour and a half. So I guess any amount of relief is going to be something. But I don't know if I just lucked out, and that next time, even at 20%, I'll fry my pump. I don't even know if that pump has some sort of safety that shuts it down if there's no flow.

More importantly, how do I know that any split short of 50-50 is going to make the port any safer for my kids? Here's the danger, however far fetched. My vac is engaged only in the middle of the night, when nobody would ever be in the pool. That's my two layers: working flap, nobody in the pool when its active. But I can run a vac cycle by just pushing a button on my indoor control panel. So it's conceivable that button could get pressed without me knowing about it with kids in the pool (the button is right next to the light button, so this scenario is not that farfetched). Now I've got a kid in the pool, and the vac running. If that kid pulled on the hose, it would disconnect and the flap would shut. Safe. BUT! It's not that hard for a mischievous boy (I just happen to have one) to grab the flap and pull off the hose: now I've got a kid's hand right at the open port drawing a couple thousand RPMs of water!

How do I reliably test an 80-20 split (any split) is going to be safe for a little hand? Or worse, a little stomach!! (Think about it. Yikes!) All I've come up with is three somewhat hair-brained ideas to test. Fire up suction mode and put my hand on it. Put a slab of beef on it to see what happens. Or put something that's not part of me, and not something that could get sucked into my pipes and get stuck, to see what the suction force is and how easy it is to pull off. Like a rubber ball or something (but the flap is going to prevent a proper seal). Then if that pulls off easily (because the suction is directed to the skimmer), then I can try my hand? :blah:

Just rambling, thinking out loud. Maybe someone else has some thoughts on this rather obscure pool problem... But I don't think I'm overthinking in this case, I want to pursue this adjustment because it's easy, free, and will add a third layer of protection to my only exposed suction port...

 

[Arizonarob]

Dude, I get your safety concerns, but you’re way over thinking this.
1. You can easily figure out what % is needed to supply your pump with enough water by, A. Closing the flap, and B, manually turning the valve and watching the water in your pump housing. (FYI, my valve is set to 80/20 vac/skimmer all the time my vac is in the pool)
2. You can alleviate the problem and the safety concern by removing the actuator from the valve and simply tossing the vac in and manually turning the valve. Yeah I get it, it’s not “convenient”, but pick your battle. And.....
3. Close the side port permanently and get a robot.

 

[Dirk]

Dude, I get your safety concerns, but you’re way over thinking this.
1. You can easily figure out what % is needed to supply your pump with enough water by, A. Closing the flap, and B, manually turning the valve and watching the water in your pump housing. (FYI, my valve is set to 80/20 vac/skimmer all the time my vac is in the pool)
2. You can alleviate the problem and the safety concern by removing the actuator from the valve and simply tossing the vac in and manually turning the valve. Yeah I get it, it’s not “convenient”, but pick your battle. And.....
3. Close the side port permanently and get a robot.

Well, those are solutions, but not exactly what I'm looking for.

#1 will likely work for me, to get the pump safe. I'll try that. It doesn't address how I'd know for sure that the pump could run like that, safely, indefinitely, though. Are you saying that any water to the pump, regardless of the restriction of the valve, is enough? It'll just pull harder?

#2 doesn't solve the issue for me in anyway, if I'm understanding your suggestion correctly. Being able to manually turn the valve would not be safer. If anything, the actuator is keeping that from happening. I want a configuration that under no circumstance can that valve be set to 100% suction to that vac port. Convenience is not a consideration.

#3 is not something I can/would consider at this time.

But thanks for weighing in, appreciate it.

 

[Arizonarob]

Well, those are solutions, but not exactly what I'm looking for.

#1 will likely work for me, to get the pump safe. I'll try that. It doesn't address how I'd know for sure that the pump could run like that, safely, indefinitely, though. Are you saying that any water to the pump, regardless of the restriction of the valve, is enough? It'll just pull harder?

#2 doesn't solve the issue for me in anyway, if I'm understanding your suggestion correctly. Being able to manually turn the valve would not be safer. If anything, the actuator is keeping that from happening. I want a configuration that under no circumstance can that valve be set to 100% suction to that vac port. Convenience is not a consideration.

#3 is not something I can/would consider at this time.

But thanks for weighing in, appreciate it.

1. No, watch the water flow in the pump basket, keep closing off more and more till you see the water flow going down, or you’ll hear the pump starting to strain. When either one of those occurres, you’ll know where it has to be set to always supply enough water to your pump.

2. Remove the handle from the valve when you’re done vacuuming.

Edit:
It just occurred to me. You said you have Pentair valves? If so, when the handle is on, does yours have the stop pins? If it does, you can install those pins to prevent the valve from being closed all the way and still leave the handle on. I just learned about those in another thread I was helping someone with.

 

[Dirk]

1. No, watch the water flow in the pump basket, keep closing off more and more till you see the water flow going down, or you’ll hear the pump starting to strain. When either one of those occurres, you’ll know where it has to be set to always supply enough water to your pump.

2. Remove the handle from the valve when you’re done vacuuming.

Edit:
It just occurred to me. You said you have Pentair valves? If so, when the handle is on, does yours have the stop pins? If it does, you can install those pins to prevent the valve from being closed all the way and still leave the handle on. I just learned about those in another thread I was helping someone with.

Way back when, I thought I understood what those pins were for, and that they could be used to limit an actuated valve. But that's not the case. When there's an actuator, the limits have to be set internally, and the external ones are not used.

If you're still working your "remove actuator" solution, that's not going to happen. But you've given me a good idea to set the minimum for the pump. I'll give that a try.

If that valve adjustment also makes the port safer, as in: I or a child could pull a hand clear of that port while it was active, then I'm set.