AA Treatment - Speed Run (trial)!! Will it work? You might be surprised!

[jesse-99]

FWIW, I’ve done several AA treatments over the last 2 years and have gotten pretty good at them where it’s become something I can do with my eyes closed.

In the past, I followed all the usual procedures and also waited until there was really heavy staining on my plaster, then bring FC to 0, add in about 6-8 pounds of Absorbic Acid (36,000 gallons roughly) because I found the .5 to 1 pound recommend dose per 10,000 gallons doesn’t come close to cutting it for my pool/staining (YMMV obviously), adding a sequester, and going through all the usual processes of circulating water and waiting 24 hours before adding any chlorine back in, and then, only adding it very slowly over a 3 day period before the chlorine starts to hold again (and with Polyquat 60 in the process to help protect against algae blooms) as the AA and chlorine react and neutralize each other over those several days. It’s very time consuming and drawn out as anyone knows who has been through this process.

I’m admittedly impatient at times so wanted to try something different this time around, and because the weather in the next few days is 80+ all week and I just don’t like doing AA treatments in the warmer weather. Furthermore, I can’t use Polyquat-60 during an AA treatment right now because I’m also dosing a mixture of Jack’s Purple and Jack’s Magenta (known at Jack’s at “PurGenta”), and if I were to add Polyquat-60 to the mix it will cause severe clouding because of the interaction with the Magenta sequestrant. So, I wanted to see if I could do an entire AA treatment in < 24 hours and get ALL chemical levels back to their normal amounts in that timeframe, -before- any chance of algae kicking in. So, I decided to give this AA treatment “speed run” a shot!

My process was the following… (started at roughly 8am)

• Let my FC drift down to about 4, then dumped in enough Absorbic Acid to neutralize any remaining chlorine to drop it to 0 instantly.
• Normally I take my pH down to 7.0-7.2 during an AA treatment but I left it up around 7.4-7.6 because I was planning on dosing with MORE Absorbic Acid than usual (again because staining was bad, and because I wanted it to work FAST so I could get chemicals back to normal in <24 hours)
• I skipped Polyquat-60 (because of the cloudy reaction it would create with my Jack’s Magenta).
• Turned off my 2-SWGs and my Stenner pump that normally doses my MA
• Added in 2 quarts of Jack’s purple and 2 quarts of Jack’s magenta (this is my MINIMUM starting dosage for -my- pool with sequestrants, validating by Jack’s sales rep, who are awesome btw) and mixed.
• Switched -ON- my heater bypass mode (as I expected pH to temporarily drop to 6.4 or 6.6 roughly) once the AA was added.
• Added in roughly 12 pounds of Absorbic Acid into the pool (again, previously I -needed- 6-8 pounds for this to work over a 3 day period) --- and circulated water with 4 of my 6 pumps running.
• Within 30-60 minutes the heaviest stains on the floors and walls were 85% lifted and looking great.
• From that point on, over the next 8 hours, ON the hour, EVERY hour, I measured, pH and FC, and dosed accordingly to get them back into normal spec.
  • PH
    • pH dropped to roughly 6.4 to 6.6 initially so I had to use a substantial amount of Mule 20 Borax to get pH back in spec.
    • Every hour, I added in the necessary Mule 20 Borax, to keep bringing pH back up.
    • I ran my beach bubbler jets, my disappearing edge, and my slide, all the help create aeration to assist in bringing pH back up (I left both my waterfalls OFF, because they are made up of 4 vinyl later basins and I don’t need them to be part of the AA treatment).
  • FC
    • FC kept disappearing back down to 0-1 because the AA neutralizes the chlorine (and chlorine in turn neutralizes the AA)
    • Every hour, I needed to add appx .75 gallon to 1 gallon of chlorine

Within 6-8 hours of the extra-heavy AA treatment, I was starting to see FC levels start to stabilize a bit, and pH was back up to 7.0. Stains were 98% removed, and water was extremely clear and looking incredible. During hours 8-12 of the initial treatment, I continued to monitor pH and FC and dose accordingly, but was confident everything was going in the right direction. By the time I went to bed at about 16 hours in, my FC was holding around 2-4 FC when measured every hour with much less topping off with liquid chlorine.

I went to bed and woke up the next morning, testing pH and FC again, making some slight adjustments, but within 24 hours of the HEAVY AA treatment, everything was about as perfect as I could have hoped.

I’m sharing this because while I don’t recommend this this Speed Run for an AA treatment, for those of you who with the time and attention to detail, and who may not want to drag an AA treatment out over 24-72 hours, it seemed to work perfectly for me, and that’s WITHOUT using Polyquat-60 in the process (again, I didn’t want to deal with the water clouding from the reaction to Jack’s Magenta which might takes 1-2 weeks to filter out). The process DID work for me, but I think you really need to stay on top of it and be able to really dedicate the time/effort to it HOURLY.

Anyways, just wanted to share because I’ve talked to so many people who skip doing AA treatment because they know the side effects, etc. with pool chemicals and testing could drag on for up to 72 hours afterwards. Thought maybe someone out there could find some value in this if you’re willing to take the risk.

Caveat --- I would never recommend this method for someone who hasn’t ever completed an AA treatment before. But for those who are more experienced with it, it might be worth doing and I can at least say it does work. HTH !

 

[Texas Splash]

As long as you found a method that works for you and your schedule, that's all that matters. Have a great weekend and TFP swim season.

 

[Saturn94]

I’m also dosing a mixture of Jack’s Purple and Jack’s Magenta

I’m curious, why are you using both?

 

[jesse-99]

It's a recommendation by two different people at Jack's based on my pool (which they recommended should be treated more as a commercial pool than a residential pool). They call it a Purgenta mix (Purple/Magenta mix) and one they've seem really good success with supposedly.

 

[an1vrsy]

What staining do you have? What causes the staining? Aren’t you just sequestering it, meaning, doesn’t it fall out of solution again eventually and you have to do this all over again?

 

[jesse-99]

It's iron staining. Iron staining is caused, for most people, by...

• Water that has iron in it from the house's well (used for filling the pool in Spring or for the pool's auto-fills, or spigot top-offs)
• Or in rarer cases, water that has iron in it from from their local municipalities or water source.
• And even more rare (which includes me), is having substantial water features in your pool where the water can leech out iron/metals into your pool. For me, this includes:
  • 2 large waterfalls with water running over (horizontally) over 60 tons of boulders/rocks and then cascades (vertically) down into the pool
  • 2 small waterfalls with water running over (horizontally) over 60 tons of boulders/rocks and then cascades (vertically) down into the pool
  • 1 disappearing edge with water constantly running over (horizontally) the 16'x2' granite coping and then cascades (veritcally) down into the pool
  • 1 massive rock/boulder that is inside/floating in the pool (used as a bar-top and for the gas firepit)
  • 1 walk in granite beach that is always underwater (roughly 250 sq-ft)
  • An entire pool lined with granite coping pavers, which probably leeches iron and other metals out during heavy rains.

Metal in water can ALSO be further complicated by, having a pool (like mine) with a much-much-much higher Evaporation Rate that most other pools (due to excessive and crazy water features AND overall square footage or top surface area of the pool), which then means more water top-offs from an auto-fill or spigot (again coming from a iron rich well! -ugh).

I think I've finally gotten a handle on the metal issues in my pool with the help of regular sequestrant dosing (and testing PPM levels of that sequestrant each week!) to keep the metals in Solution (keeps them there, but doesn't necessarily filter them out), and then helping to actually remove the sequestered iron from the pool by using a combination of using Jack's Filter Fiber in my 3 (yes, 3) cartridge filters for my pool (to filter particles down to 2-3 micron, instead of 20'ish microns like my normal cartridges filter might do on its own), and using CuLators (I have 3 of the 1.0's CuLators and 4 of the 4.0 CuLators, all used at once). Those methods helps to get rid of the iron in my pool. (Also, don't expect just adding a CuLator 4.0 into your pump basket to magically remove your metals instantly, this process takes weeks, not hours, not days! as it requires lots of contact time).

Furthermore to prevent iron from getting into my pool from filling or auto-fill water, I now (as of this morning!!!) have dual SoftWater tanks (13x54 in size) so that I can (if need be), run 23,000 gallons PER DAY (for filling up the pool, as an example) and have one tank regenerating (takes roughly 3-4 hours in total, and regenerates after about 3,000 gallons) while the other non-regenerating tank is still doing ion exchange to remove any iron. (Big thanks to @Swampwoman for sharing her experience years ago with Dual SoftWater tanks to get rid of her iron issues). And to be -extra- sure I'm taking out metals, I have some additional filtering added before/after the Dual SoftWater tanks as well (the pre-filters need backwashing every 2,000 gallons and the post-filter just needs to be changed out every 20,000 gallons).

Another key help in combating metal staining has been, adding a pH (MA) dosing pump to my pool to keep my pool around 7.0-7.4 pH to help prevent staining (and a pH that low with my pool requires about 2.5 gallons of MA per week because of all the aeration created, ack). The lower pH allows the water to absorb and hold more of the metals before they fall out. And keeping FC in check (not going too high!) helps as well, because when FC gets too high, it will cause the sequestrant to break down faster. (think of a sequestrant as the outer hard shell of an M&M chocolate candy --- the sequestrant (the hard outer shell) coats the iron molecule (the chocolate candy) and protects it to keep it in Solution. but if your FC gets too high, than the metal shell around that M&M chocolate candy will disappear, and the iron molecule will fall out of Solution and go into Suspension, which we all know turns your pool green/brown and the staining begins!!

The key take away is, metals suck. I'm hoping that last AA treatment (Speed Run!) I did is the last of anymore AA treatments I'll need (unless I screw up), especially now with the Dual SoftWater tanks which will do an ion exchange and convert that iron to Sodium instead. (which sure seems like a way more efficient way, to eliminate the iron, instead of just trying to -filter- or catch the iron!).

I've learned SO much about dealing with this stuff, made lots of mistakes (-facepalm-), but also learned what works (for me at least) and most of all, learned patience... (alright, I admit I'm still trying to learn the patience part...)

 

[an1vrsy]

Wow, up for such a well thought out and composed response to my question.

 

[Katodude]

Have you spent any time thinking about how to remove the existing metals in your water?

My plan is to stuff my filter with Polyfill next time I do an AA treatment (will wait until winter). Then I dump LC in the skimmer and the FC plus pH rise seems to precipitate it just in time for the filter to catch it.

I did this without the Polyfill once and it worked a little bit, I am hoping the Polyfill gets me extra results.

 

[jesse-99]

Have you spent any time thinking about how to remove the existing metals in your water?

Yes, see paragraph above that starts with, "I think I've finally gotten a handle..."

 

[jesse-99]

My plan is to stuff my filter with Polyfill next time I do an AA treatment (will wait until winter). Then I dump LC in the skimmer and the FC plus pH rise seems to precipitate it just in time for the filter to catch it.

I did this without the Polyfill once and it worked a little bit, I am hoping the Polyfill gets me extra results.

Polyfill works well if you aren't using sequestrant and the iron is already in suspension, the only concern is if you don't catch all the iron quickly enough it will probably restain all over again after your AA treatment. So you have to use a lot of it and constantly be running your water through that polyfill until the water all clears up and hope you get it all. But yes, that can definitely work too. Have gone that route myself in the past...

 

[Brian Malone]

jesse-99 - very nice post on your methods and results!! Thank you very much! A side note - you have provided an answer to me on mysterious clouding of my pool water when using various sequestrants and poly for algae control. There have been times when I think everything is going well and then boom! - whitish water for no apparent reason. I am going to use a variation of your speed method since, my pool is ~1/2 yours and add in multiple Culators (previously, I have only used one at a time in the skimmer). I have done a few AA treatments so I see the method to your method .

 

[Brian Malone]

jesse-99 I tried out a modification of your 'speed run' AA treatment and I am pleased with the results. I dosed the Ascorbic Acid at about 2X the required amount based on volume of my pool, skipped Polquat but because my pool is ~15 ft x 32 ft, I covered it with a black out tarp. I let the AA work for a day, keeping the pool covered up then adjusted my pH using borax. Jack's Magenta Stuff, I added liquid chlorine as needed until it maintains a constant level. FC is 5, pH is 7.2, TA is 110 to 120. I am trying two 4.0 Culators.

I am ready to remove the tarp and get in the water with a pumice stick and descale the water line.

I think the abbreviated process worked well and I did not stress about getting an algae bloom while rebalancing the pH and slowly raising the chlorine level.

 

[Pennypat]

FWIW, I’ve done several AA treatments over the last 2 years and have gotten pretty good at them where it’s become something I can do with my eyes closed.

In the past, I followed all the usual procedures and also waited until there was really heavy staining on my plaster, then bring FC to 0, add in about 6-8 pounds of Absorbic Acid (36,000 gallons roughly) because I found the .5 to 1 pound recommend dose per 10,000 gallons doesn’t come close to cutting it for my pool/staining (YMMV obviously), adding a sequester, and going through all the usual processes of circulating water and waiting 24 hours before adding any chlorine back in, and then, only adding it very slowly over a 3 day period before the chlorine starts to hold again (and with Polyquat 60 in the process to help protect against algae blooms) as the AA and chlorine react and neutralize each other over those several days. It’s very time consuming and drawn out as anyone knows who has been through this process.

I’m admittedly impatient at times so wanted to try something different this time around, and because the weather in the next few days is 80+ all week and I just don’t like doing AA treatments in the warmer weather. Furthermore, I can’t use Polyquat-60 during an AA treatment right now because I’m also dosing a mixture of Jack’s Purple and Jack’s Magenta (known at Jack’s at “PurGenta”), and if I were to add Polyquat-60 to the mix it will cause severe clouding because of the interaction with the Magenta sequestrant. So, I wanted to see if I could do an entire AA treatment in < 24 hours and get ALL chemical levels back to their normal amounts in that timeframe, -before- any chance of algae kicking in. So, I decided to give this AA treatment “speed run” a shot!

My process was the following… (started at roughly 8am)

• Let my FC drift down to about 4, then dumped in enough Absorbic Acid to neutralize any remaining chlorine to drop it to 0 instantly.
• Normally I take my pH down to 7.0-7.2 during an AA treatment but I left it up around 7.4-7.6 because I was planning on dosing with MORE Absorbic Acid than usual (again because staining was bad, and because I wanted it to work FAST so I could get chemicals back to normal in <24 hours)
• I skipped Polyquat-60 (because of the cloudy reaction it would create with my Jack’s Magenta).
• Turned off my 2-SWGs and my Stenner pump that normally doses my MA
• Added in 2 quarts of Jack’s purple and 2 quarts of Jack’s magenta (this is my MINIMUM starting dosage for -my- pool with sequestrants, validating by Jack’s sales rep, who are awesome btw) and mixed.
• Switched -ON- my heater bypass mode (as I expected pH to temporarily drop to 6.4 or 6.6 roughly) once the AA was added.
• Added in roughly 12 pounds of Absorbic Acid into the pool (again, previously I -needed- 6-8 pounds for this to work over a 3 day period) --- and circulated water with 4 of my 6 pumps running.
• Within 30-60 minutes the heaviest stains on the floors and walls were 85% lifted and looking great.
• From that point on, over the next 8 hours, ON the hour, EVERY hour, I measured, pH and FC, and dosed accordingly to get them back into normal spec.
  • PH
    • pH dropped to roughly 6.4 to 6.6 initially so I had to use a substantial amount of Mule 20 Borax to get pH back in spec.
    • Every hour, I added in the necessary Mule 20 Borax, to keep bringing pH back up.
    • I ran my beach bubbler jets, my disappearing edge, and my slide, all the help create aeration to assist in bringing pH back up (I left both my waterfalls OFF, because they are made up of 4 vinyl later basins and I don’t need them to be part of the AA treatment).
  • FC
    • FC kept disappearing back down to 0-1 because the AA neutralizes the chlorine (and chlorine in turn neutralizes the AA)
    • Every hour, I needed to add appx .75 gallon to 1 gallon of chlorine

Within 6-8 hours of the extra-heavy AA treatment, I was starting to see FC levels start to stabilize a bit, and pH was back up to 7.0. Stains were 98% removed, and water was extremely clear and looking incredible. During hours 8-12 of the initial treatment, I continued to monitor pH and FC and dose accordingly, but was confident everything was going in the right direction. By the time I went to bed at about 16 hours in, my FC was holding around 2-4 FC when measured every hour with much less topping off with liquid chlorine.

I went to bed and woke up the next morning, testing pH and FC again, making some slight adjustments, but within 24 hours of the HEAVY AA treatment, everything was about as perfect as I could have hoped.

I’m sharing this because while I don’t recommend this this Speed Run for an AA treatment, for those of you who with the time and attention to detail, and who may not want to drag an AA treatment out over 24-72 hours, it seemed to work perfectly for me, and that’s WITHOUT using Polyquat-60 in the process (again, I didn’t want to deal with the water clouding from the reaction to Jack’s Magenta which might takes 1-2 weeks to filter out). The process DID work for me, but I think you really need to stay on top of it and be able to really dedicate the time/effort to it HOURLY.

Anyways, just wanted to share because I’ve talked to so many people who skip doing AA treatment because they know the side effects, etc. with pool chemicals and testing could drag on for up to 72 hours afterwards. Thought maybe someone out there could find some value in this if you’re willing to take the risk.

Caveat --- I would never recommend this method for someone who hasn’t ever completed an AA treatment before. But for those who are more experienced with it, it might be worth doing and I can at least say it does work. HTH !

I’m trying another AA treatment. I had to use 10 lbs of AA, a quart of polyquat60 and 3.5 of Jacks purple stuff. I started with AA yesterday about 3P and added it slowly checking every 30 minutes to an hour. I had to add way more than the 1st time. But, my FC was at 8. This morning FC is 0 and ph is below 7. It was around 7.9 yesterday when I started and I added about a cup of MA. Right now it looks marvelous. And I’m checking every hour. I’m adding around 50-60 oz of 10% bleach and FC is staying around .5. I may have found my iron source. I have a screw around 2 of my jets that looks rusty even after my AA treatment. I’m going to send pics of pool after 1st 5 lbs of AA, and this morning. And pics of jets. I want to get the pool stable today as I have to work tomorrow.

My questions to you are: what did you use for your target FC when you checked every hour? How long do you think the polyquat will last (in case the chlorine doesn’t hold tomorrow). And, should I try to raise my PH? I feel like my ph raises quickly without help.
The water temp is low 78.

 

[cledee]

What worked for me, was, I decided to keep my PH between 7.0-7.2 all season after performing the AA treatment. Because we got so much rain this year, I did not add any water from the tap either. I had the water tested and even though it's city water, the city pipes are all rusted and introduce a little Iron, enough to be noticeable in about 2-3 years or earlier if I need to add a lot of water.

 

[cledee]

I’m trying another AA treatment. I had to use 10 lbs of AA, a quart of polyquat60 and 3.5 of Jacks purple stuff. I started with AA yesterday about 3P and added it slowly checking every 30 minutes to an hour. I had to add way more than the 1st time. But, my FC was at 8. This morning FC is 0 and ph is below 7. It was around 7.9 yesterday when I started and I added about a cup of MA. Right now it looks marvelous. And I’m checking every hour. I’m adding around 50-60 oz of 10% bleach and FC is staying around .5. I may have found my iron source. I have a screw around 2 of my jets that looks rusty even after my AA treatment. I’m going to send pics of pool after 1st 5 lbs of AA, and this morning. And pics of jets. I want to get the pool stable today as I have to work tomorrow.

My questions to you are: what did you use for your target FC when you checked every hour? How long do you think the polyquat will last (in case the chlorine doesn’t hold tomorrow). And, should I try to raise my PH? I feel like my ph raises quickly without help.
The water temp is low 78.

I think one of the mistakes most of us make is trying to get the PH back into balance too quickly. I believe as chlorine is added it neutralizes any AA remaining and your PH goes slightly back up.

 

[duraleigh]

Jesse-99, I have only skimmed this interesting thread. Have you considered a water softener?

 

[Pennypat]

I think one of the mistakes most of us make is trying to get the PH back into balance too quickly. I believe as chlorine is added it neutralizes any AA remaining and your PH goes slightly back up.

I did add some 20 mule borax. But, it didn’t change my PH at all. I can’t tell what my PH is because my Taylor kit only measures 7.0 and up. And, it is below that. But, I hear what you’re saying about the PH staying low.

 

[jesse-99]

Jesse-99, I have only skimmed this interesting thread. Have you considered a water softener?

I added one a few months ago after reading many posts by SwampWoman. I went with a dual tank softener that is capable of 3,500 gallons between regenerations of each tank. It literally is the BEST thing I've ever done with my pool related to iron/metals. Since then, I never have to worry about iron or staining. I even drained my pool mid-summer and re-added 36,000 fresh gallons of softened water, and couldn't be happier. Softened water (preferably dual tank) is easily the best and trouble-free iron treatment there is for pools. I can't recommend them enough!