pool monitor

[Sandy Pool]

I am almost 100% certain it will not meet expectations even if it does ever come out.

No way it will work with the methods that we teach here which are fundamentally based on accurate test results.

Are you saying the Sutro won't work with the TFP methods because it is incapable of accurate results? I'm not disagreeing, but just wonder if that's because the hoped-for specs are not good enough, or do you believe they can't meet the accuracy goals with their chosen technology?

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[jblizzle]

There is no technology at a reasonable price point that will accurately test many of the parameters. Might be able to get pH pretty well, but not FC directly and I am not aware of a way to use a sensor to measure CYA. Plus there is always the concern of maintaining calibration.

 

[tim5055]

Are you saying the Sure I won't work with the TFP methods because it is incapable of accurate results? I'm not disagreeing, but just wonder if that's because the hoped-for specs are not good enough, or do you believe they can't meet the accuracy goals with their chosen technology?

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It is doubtful that their testing will be both accurate and consistant.

The make the following statements:

The pHin monitor uses lab grade sensors, the same type that are used in commercial pools to monitor their water chemistry. In addition, we supplement these readings with occasional test strip dips which allow us to monitor Total Hardness, Total Alkalinity and Cyanuric Acid, while also ensuring that our sensors stay properly calibrated. As for comparisons to ePool, that’s hard to say, the ePool devices we purchased failed before we could get much useful data from them. We’re so confident that our solution works, we’re offering a money back guarantee, and if our device ever fails for any of our subscribers, we’ll ship them a replacement, free of charge.

The app will notify you when you need to dip the test strip, and then you just take a picture of the test strip with our mobile app (no need to analyze the strip yourself).

We already know that test strips are amazingly inaccurate, so if they are using them to monitor and "calibrate" their sensors the testing is going to be suspect.

Additionally, if they plan to ship you stabilized chlorine products as they claim here,

Yes, the chlorine pods contain stabilized chlorine. For pools, it will likely be trichlor. For hot tubs that prefer chlorine over bromine, it will be dichlor. pHin will monitor your cyanic acid levels, and if they get too high, we'll contact you to discuss options on how to lower it.

then it certainly will not follow our methods as we depend on closely monitoring the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] .

As Dave pointed out earlier, our whole system is based on accurate testing and using your knowledge to adjust to changes, not to blindly follow what you are told to do.

 

[jblizzle]

Thanks Tim, I had forgotten they relied on test strips.

 

[Sandy Pool]

Any news on the Sutro? They talk as though some units are in consumers' hands (even though it also sounds like some design decisions are still yet to be finalized), so I wonder if there are any real world reports. For me, I cancelled my pre-order when it came time to pay - too risky, considering the tech-risk and biz-risk.

 

[werd98]

Has anyone tried the pHin pool monitor? I'd be interested in their measuring-hardware only, and then adding the chemicals myself.

Sounds like they've been shipping for a while:

When is pHin going to begin shipping?
We started shipping pHin to our chlorine pool members in July and are working around the clock to get your pHin to you as quickly as possible. We will update you via email about when you can expect to receive your pHin.

... and, via email:

We have not started taking orders for hardware only just yet. The hardware only option provides the pHin Monitor, Wireless Bridge, and pHin Mobile App, but will not include chemicals as part of the subscription. PHin will monitor your water chemistry, and provide chemical readings and recommendations to keep your water healthy. Since we will not deliver pHin chemicals to your door, you will have the flexibility to use pHin with leading chemical brands you can purchase directly. This option costs $299 (plus $15 shipping), and will be available this spring.

 

[Donldson]

If they have been shipping for a while why does their website still say pre-order? As there isn't a single review online for it (aside from the glowing "user testimonials" on their website) I will go out on a limb and say that it has not shipped despite what their marketing team would like you to believe. Also given that the creator of Sutro has straight up admitted that the technology to make it work does not exist, I am pretty confident in saying not to hold your breath on either of these things.

 

[Sandy Pool]

I really doubt a working product ever becomes available, but they do have a sense of humor:

"SAN FRANCISCO, CA, USA, April 1, 2017 /EINPresswire.com/ -- San Francisco based*Sutro, which builds a water monitoring device for your swimming pool is launching a new service that uses drones to deliver chemicals.*

Currently, pool owners need to test swimming pool water with a test kit, compare colors, drive to the pool store, buy chemicals, and then treat their pools. Sutro understands this pain-point and aims to fix all of these issues. Sutro has already built a device to measure the pool chemistry, solving the first half of the pool ownership battle.*

Today, Sutro is once again pushing the limits of the pool industry to solve the latter half of the pool ownership journey. Sutro is proud to announce the*Sutro Drone Chemical Service*(SDCS*for short). Drones will be deployed off of planes or local distribution centers, fly over your pool and drop small amounts of chemicals of your choice into your swimming pool or spa.*

For your safety, SDCS will include a red siren that you place beside your pool. The siren will begin to sound 5 minutes prior to delivery alerting you to the incoming delivery. Once the siren begins to ring, it is strongly recommended that all swimmers leave a 50 foot radius around the body of water, as chemicals tend to blow in the wind or could be dispensed on top of people who are swimming in the pool. Sutro has also developed a smartphone app that will alert you to the incoming chemical drop.*

The SDCS is also beta testing a service that will use the same drones, combined with cutting edge AI to pull kids out of the pool who may be urinating. This service is still in testing, but if you would like to sign up, please email us at [email protected]."

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[ravi_sutro]

Hey all - while you debate the future of our companies, the lack of efficacy in our sensors, and looming failure of our cash flow, I'd love to shine some light on where we're at and how we're looking at the problem.


First and foremost, we are not here to take your capital Jfgreco is correct that there is an entire business model to develop and raising of capital that goes on. Congrats, BTW, to pHin who raised $7M from the Lonza deal. As for us -- if, at any point, you feel that you’d like to cancel your preorder, just email us ([email protected]), or heck, email me personally ([email protected]).


Secondly, we’re not building an ORP or pH glass-bulb sensor. I can say that off the bat. We built one 2 years ago (the TechCrunch demo shows that, heres the video >> Sutro’s Smart Device Helps Pool Owners Take Control Of Their Water Chemistry | TechCrunch). We purchased sensors from SensorEx and Atlas Scientific. If you want the code and would like to build one yourself, just email us. I’ll send you the files and can release our code on GitHub. Now, I can say that we didn’t appreciate three things from the glass-bulb sensors, which all of you seem to agree with.

1. They drift, this sucks.
2. Why purchase a product that does not give you a true ppm value for chlorine
3. … what about alkalinity?

Thirdly, the sensor cluster that we are building, and we’ve done a bunch of testing on, will give you a (true) ppm reading for chlorine, it does do alkalinity (+/- 10ppm on mg/CaCO3), and a real pH reading. We're in finalization of CYA and total chlorine. We have hit the price point, we're just at the stage of building and commercialization. I can’t get into the sensor specifics, but it works a lot better than the glass-bulb probes, I can promise you that, from experience. I was born into a pool store, and totally understand your reservations on the pH/ORP sensor, test strips, and wholly believe in liquid spectroscopy.


Lastly, we do have a sense of humor. Thanks for that Sandy Pool.

Finally, finally, for real this time. Yes, we are real. The sensor does work. Startups are hard. So please bear with us, support us, and help us out. We started this business to build something that doesn’t yet exist - there’s a reason for that - it’s a challenging problem. We see the stories like Skully or Lily and we know that everyone is weary - I get it. We haven’t blown through the money either. If you want out, just let us know and we will gladly provide a refund - no questions asked. Biz-risk is going to always be there when you're backing a start-up, look at the latest news from Juicero.


We’re trying everything in our command to raise capital. We have done so already, and we are raising more. We have built and continue to build our engineering team. We are also working to acquire customers (through various other revenue channels -- “Joe”, you’re correct, we do have a test kit that helps us acquire customers). We’re always iterating on product, business model, and acquisition, and partners. If you have any suggestions, reach out.


Again, I’m not coming on here to complain -- I just want to shine some light from our side of how things are going. If you want more details, just reach out. Email me at [email protected] (or DM me here), I'm more than happy to hop on a phone (or video) call and let you know whats going on.


P.S. check out the guys at waterguru.com -- they’re working on some cool stuff. Power in numbers! We’re here to help you, so email us.

Best, Ravi

 

[Sandy Pool]

Thanks for the update. I wish you the best and will buy one at retail if you succeed.

 

[march2012]

Thanks for the update. I wish you the best and will buy one at retail if you succeed.

It seems like a pool monitor that you just loaded up with test chemicals that just dosed them out and ran the tests, then dumped them into a holding tank could work great.

Suck water in
Add powder
mix
add drops until it scans clear
calculate FC

same with all the rest.

Once a year (or less) you reload it with chemicals, conveniently purchased from said company.

The technology for this would be incredibly cheap. It doesnt need to float in the pool, just be a box sitting there sucking water in.

 

[SpringPool]

I sent Phin an email asking some very direct questions and received a response very quickly. With that I hope Sutro nails it with there new sensor package.

pHin monitors your pH, ORP and Temperature 24x7. We also scan test strips once a month to monitor your TA, TH, and CYA. The test strips are not very accurate, but they are able to provide a high level directionally accurate reading that is helpful, especially for those three levels that don’t change very frequently.

Many people have concerns over the quality of their water ("is it safe for their kids" for example), and appreciate the confidence that pHin can provide, as well as the simple and clear instructions to help them keep their water balanced. If you’re already comfortable with pool chemistry, and have a system that works well for you, you may have no need for pHin.


Our lead investor is Lonza, the worlds leading manufacturer of pool chemicals, they make brands such as Poolife, GLB, Ultima, Leisure Time, etc. In addition to our own testing, Lonza has also conducted testing of our monitor, and our recommendations. The specific sensor probes we use are manufactured by Sensorex, a leading US sensor manufacturer who makes similar probes for commercial pools.


Be aware that pHin is not a meter. To achieve our goal of simplicity and ease of use, we leverage averaging and trending of data to know when to alert customers to add chemicals. So the readings that pHin provides at any given time will probably not match the readings you receive from a given spot check (although they will be in the ballpark).

 

[jblizzle]

Anything based on test strips is bound to fail. And orp is not reliable in most outdoor pools where cya is present.

 

[Donldson]

Wow, that email certainly confirms my suspicions of how far they have their heads... right, right, family site. I want to go through that line by line.

pHin monitors your pH, ORP and Temperature 24x7. We also scan test strips once a month to monitor your TA, TH, and CYA. The test strips are not very accurate, but they are able to provide a high level directionally accurate reading that is helpful, especially for those three levels that don’t change very frequently.

Nothing surprising here, we knew from the start they weren't designing some new technology despite their claims. Plenty of pool automation equipment uses digital pH, ORP, and temperature sensors. But as blizz mentioned, ORP doesn't work correctly in the presence of CYA and since they will be sending you stabilized chlorine that is just not going to work. So you are left with a digital pH meter and thermometer, about $20 worth of hardware. Funny they aknowledge the worthlessness of test strips, and then turn around and say it is somehow still helpful. After seeing someone with a fresh fill getting a 50+ CYA reading on their test strips (fresh water has zero CYA) I certainly wouldn't call that "a high level directionally accurate reading" whatever the heck they think that means. And I have mentioned before that Clorox sells a test strip/app combo for much less than pHin. It is still terrible, please don't bother using it, but just shows that the technology they are using is available elsewhere for less.

Many people have concerns over the quality of their water ("is it safe for their kids" for example), and appreciate the confidence that pHin can provide, as well as the simple and clear instructions to help them keep their water balanced. If you’re already comfortable with pool chemistry, and have a system that works well for you, you may have no need for pHin.

Confidence in knowing that your water is not too cold and the pH is fine! Exciting! As I said though, everything they offer is available elsewhere cheaper.

Our lead investor is Lonza, the worlds leading manufacturer of pool chemicals, they make brands such as Poolife, GLB, Ultima, Leisure Time, etc. In addition to our own testing, Lonza has also conducted testing of our monitor, and our recommendations. The specific sensor probes we use are manufactured by Sensorex, a leading US sensor manufacturer who makes similar probes for commercial pools.

Oh good, their lead investor is a company that repackages baking soda as "TA increaser" and triples the price. Or adds the words "For saltwater" to a bottle so they can double the price again. Couldn't imagine why the leading manufacturer of pool chemicals would back a product that will lock people in to buying a specific brand of pool chemicals. It's a mystery... As far as the probes, I'm sure they are just fine. For the record ORP probes are fine in a commercial pool because they are limited to very low or no CYA levels. But I never questioned the quality of their probes, only the usefulness in a residential pool and the benefit/cost.

Be aware that pHin is not a meter. To achieve our goal of simplicity and ease of use, we leverage averaging and trending of data to know when to alert customers to add chemicals. So the readings that pHin provides at any given time will probably not match the readings you receive from a given spot check (although they will be in the ballpark).

I have no idea what this means, it certainly is a meter. If they think using some software to average out the readings is something special... Well I refer you to my opening statement regarding the current location of their heads

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Just to be needlessly and aggravatingly pedantic -

a meter is something that measures the distribution or flow of mass into a system ("how much bleach did the Stenner pump meter into the pool?") whereas a sensor measures the presence or concentration of some component of a mixture ("the pH sensor measures the hydronium concetrationtion of the solution.").

A GPS sensor would be required to locate the exact position of their head relative to another part of their body....

 

[JWAustinVTX]

Anything based on test strips is bound to fail. And orp is not reliable in most outdoor pools where cya is present.

Hi JBlizzle - new to a pool and having one built now. Heard about the phin which brought me to this post. Thank you for the insight, I'll check out your links. Any other suggestions on where to start reading up?

Thanks,

Jason

 

[jblizzle]

Hi JBlizzle - new to a pool and having one built now. Heard about the phin which brought me to this post. Thank you for the insight, I'll check out your links. Any other suggestions on where to start reading up?

Thanks,

Jason

Lots of information to be found in TFP pool school. There is s construction section that may be helpful.

 

[dhc]

Update on MySutro: I have been trying to get an answer from their twitter account and from Ravi himself via email but <crickets>. After pre-ordering almost 2 years back it more and more looks like the device is not going to happen. Last year they would at least still keep people posted but by now they don't even bother anymore.

Seems like phin will remain the only widely available system but it has very mediocre reviews. If there are any other devices out there I don't know about please post here.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Look into WaterGuru but I would say this - the best piece of equipment you can get for your pool is one of the high quality test kits TFP recommends. Testing and dosing your water yourself means less error and fewer problems. Adding technological abstractions to caring for a pool just creates more potential sources of errors and confusion.

 

[Sandy Pool]

Update on MySutro: I have been trying to get an answer from their twitter account and from Ravi himself via email but <crickets>. After pre-ordering almost 2 years back it more and more looks like the device is not going to happen. Last year they would at least still keep people posted but by now they don't even bother anymore.

I also pre-ordered; but as soon as they asked for payment, I cancelled. Story looked too familiar. Hope you didn't get burned